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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Programming - Poor HTML programming |
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Liquid Pi Experiment Red Koopa Level: 20  Posts: 109/138 EXP: 39623 For next: 2816 Since: 03-15-04 From: Ye olde England! Since last post: 117 days Last activity: 4 days |
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| FIRST OF ALL: This is NOT a Firefox vs IE/microsoft hating thread, if anyone wants to go pimp their browser, there's plenty of other fanboy threads out there. Don't piss all over my thread. Secondly, I was wondering if you nice poeple here could help me put an end to a long and tiresome debate I've had with my friend. I say that sites which work only in IE are poorly/lazily programmed. My friend says that sites which work only in IE are correct, because that is the standard. Surely, even the fact that microsoft make up their own tolerances for how IE reads HTML, doesn't make it standard? I've given him the w3c as an example of the standard of HTML and how they've instigated and refined other web languages, such as xml, xhtml etc etc. Surely if it was left up to microsoft we'd still be on HTML v3! With no CSS! He refutes that argument by simply re-iterating what he says before, which is IE is most popular. By the way, we both code in HTML 4.01 transitional and use CSS and use firefox, just he is fixiated on the mythical "IE standard" Please help knock some sense into him. Or just beat him senseless. Whichever suits your purposes better  |
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Narf Hi Tuvai! (reregistering while banned) Level: 16  Posts: 38/100 EXP: 17634 For next: 2622 Since: 12-26-04 Since last post: 22 hours Last activity: 14 hours |
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| The fact that Internet Explorer is so powerful is because it's integrated in Windows, which is the most known Operating System in the world. Ever asked a random person what Linux is? Only 1 out fo 10 people will most likely know. Only Windows is advertised on TV, Windows, magazines, etcetera all over the world so massively. Also, a lot of complete computers you can buy come with Windows. It's not a fact of Windows being better or more powerful, but it's the fact of Microsoft having one heck of a powerful marketing department. Look at Firefox for example. Many people that tried it find it better than Internet Explorer. But the fact is, not so many people know about it. Firefox doesn't come with the world's most known operating system, and Firefox isn't advertised anywhere on TV, radio or magazines (though I'm reading more and more Firefox articles in computer related magazines lately, still, they're just articles, no actual advertisements). Not much people at all know that there are other browsers other than Internet Explorer. A webpage only designed for Internet Explorer is a horrible webpage. A good webpage is accessable in any operating system and with any browser. The fact that less webpages look good in let's say, Firefox or Opera, is that these 2 browsers take standards more into account, and are thus 'stricter' when generating webpages. Internet Explorer, being the most widely used browser, doesn't, and 'ignores' errors and/or creates alternatives for them so a page still does look good. |
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Parasyte Bullet Bill Level: 35  Posts: 275/514 EXP: 267348 For next: 12588 Since: 05-25-04 Since last post: 104 days Last activity: 32 days |
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| Using only HTML 4.01 Strict + CSS, it is easier to make a site look bad in Internet Explorer than it is in FireFox. The HTML and CSS could be perfectly written, and properly verified, but that does not mean Internet Explorer will display it properly. This is due to incomplete support for CSS, and probably the whole lenient HTML thing. My most recent website design is a good example. The CSS used is not fully supported by either IE or Opera. IE also has the added benefit of 'ignoring' the PNG transparency. That being the case, I can't even comprehend why anyone would attempt to support IE over all other browsers, if IE can't even support proper web design. |
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Vystrix Nexoth Level: 30 Posts: 257/348 EXP: 158678 For next: 7191 Since: 03-15-04 From: somewhere between anima and animus Since last post: 3 days Last activity: 2 days |
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| LπE: Your friend considers MSIE's "standards" to be de facto standards, compared to the de jure standards under the auspices of the World Wide Web Consortium. That said, I contend that:
Narf: Exactly. MSIE survives because of sheer market inertia, not necessarily by its own merits (even at its peak at during the Browser Wars). Parasyte: Those people would support MSIE over all other browsers, not in spite of it not supporting proper web design, but because of it. MSIE promotes laziness on the part of web authors; oh, it's too much effort to check a page in all browsers (though with a well-designed website, this should be little more than a formality), or to use proper markup when looks-oriented markup "just works" (for visual browsers only, anyway... who cares about those other browsers, let alone anyone who doesn't use a traditional desktop-PC browser?). They want a purty, l33t web page without going through the bother of understanding the craft or doing it properly; they're like kids who want to be a big badass army guy / fireman / policeman / astronaut / professional wrestler / president / etc, and get the perks associated therewith, without going through the bother of learning the responsibilities of the job (let alone living up to them). *sighs* (edited by Vystrix Nexoth on 02-07-05 05:28 PM) |
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 3148/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| I did see a Firefox ad in the newspaper once. Big full-page one. That was nice. The problem here is your friend seems to think that because IE is the most popular, its behaviour is the standard. In fact, IE tends to stray far from supporting the standards. The result is usually obscure security holes (it was actually built to allow web pages to launch programs - logging into Hotmail would launch MSN Messenger  ) and bugs ('<Generally I design my pages in Mozilla, then once it's finished I look at it in IE. If it doesn't look good, I'll try to fix it, but not if it means going out of my way to support some arbitrary 'feature'. If looks are that important to you, there's a link to the Mozilla home page.  I'd also just like to say that the implimentation of IE itself is just a horrible idea. The browser and the OS are far too integrated with eachother. This not only means you end up with an OS that's dependant on an HTML parser (some programs, such as XP's activation system, are actually written in Javascript ), but with a browser able to do things only the OS is supposed to be able to do. Something that deeply embedded in the OS should most certainly not be used to download and view remote files, especially with scripting support.  |
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windwaker Ball and Chain Trooper WHY ALL THE MAYONNAISE HATE Level: 61  Posts: 1121/1797 EXP: 1860597 For next: 15999 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 4 days Last activity: 6 days |
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| I did see a Firefox ad in the newspaper once. Big full-page one. That was nice. They showed that ad in the New York Times. |
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