 |
| Register | Login | |||||
 |
Main
| Memberlist
| Active users
| ACS
| Commons
| Calendar
| Online users Ranks | FAQ | Color Chart | Photo album | IRC Chat |
|
| | ||
|
| Register | Login | |||||
|
Main
| Memberlist
| Active users
| ACS
| Commons
| Calendar
| Online users Ranks | FAQ | Color Chart | Photo album | IRC Chat |
|
| | ||
| 0 user currently in World Affairs / Debate. |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Uh-oh, spaghettios. |
 |  |  |
| Pages: 1 2 | Add to favorites | "RSS" Feed | Next newer thread | Next older thread |
| User | Post | ||
Generation Terrorist Mini Octorok Level: 7 Posts: 16/18 EXP: 1355 For next: 93 Since: 12-22-04 From: 100 steps forward, 99 steps back. Since last post: 279 days Last activity: 242 days |
| ||
| Justification? Who needs justification? Posted direct from my blog: I had an epiphany the other day. Every time I get into a discussion about the war in Iraq, I generally focus on the positives that bridge from it. More freedom in the economy leading to more freedom in the government leading to more freedom for the people. The end of tyranny. Etc. When it comes to actual motives for the government's actions in Iraq, however, I normally outputted a complete blank, with people taking advantage of the pause to throw out accusations of oil and money. Whilst talking with a friend of mine, however, everything seemed to click together. To give my argument some basis in history, let's recall two events. First of all, let's remember the actions taken by Germany and the Soviet Union during World War II. Both of these nations strove for buffer zones, normally the Baltics (Estonia, Latvia), areas that would give some measure of defense in case of attack from an outside nation. In fact, one of the underlying principles behind Hitler's extension of the Third Reich, outside of master race devilry, was the concept of lebensraum, or 'living space.' Its generally been accepted by major nations in the past that it is a good idea to have some space between yourself and hostiles - Even America took advantage of this during the Cold War, working on the domino theory to try to keep Communism at bay. Which brings back my second point in history - acting on the domino theory, America would often endorse anti-Communist factions in order to keep the system from taking power in another country, ignorning the idealogy of the faction (I point to the Mujahadeen as a piece of my case evidence). Given time, these factions would often turn against America, or pay lip service while oppressing the people of the country and ruining economies. The latter of these would often give rise to revolutions that spawned anti-Western nations, giving rise to a very uncertain and murky realm of politics. The "he's a son of a bitch but he's our son of a bitch" Cold War foreign policy failed in the long run. Enter modern times. For years, the middle east has become increasingly dominated by fundamentalist powers that oppress its people and are very anti-Western in leaning, creating political difficulties, especially considering the economic influence of the area. As some of these nations began developing territorial ambitions, as well as nuclear capabilities, the political threat began to grow. Some hold was put upon them in the first Gulf War and by supporting Israel, but such nations as Iran and Saudi Arabia were still hosts to hostile bodies. Ever since the end of the Cold War, neoconservatives have been pushing for programs to introduce pro-democratic regimes into the world. Not only would this better the world as a whole through economic pluses, and people in general as gross breaches of human rights were ended, but it would be beneficial to the US, giving it the political equivalent of lebensraum, with more room to manuever. What we're seeing now is action on these ideas - regime changes in Afghanistan and Iraq (formerly anti-Western authoritarian states), both very strategic areas (militarily speaking) of the Middle East, and signs of movement against other such nations. The difference between the regime changes of now and the contras of yesteryear are that by this time, the US has (hopefully) learned that a functional democracy is better politically speaking than a dysfunctional authoritarian regime. The very fact that efforts to rebuild Afghanistan and Iraq (clumsily though they have been proceeding) suggests that the US has learned from its past mistakes. Under domino theory, we should be seeing an increase of basic freedoms in the Middle East as a whole very soon. Opponents to the War that I talk to often wonder one other thing. Why now? Why this particular time? For that, one only has to look at Vietnam. On a domestic front, it was an absolute fKitten Yiffer - lack of morale and extreme anti-war sentiment. This is because it was a war of ideas, not of imminent threat. It is much harder to go to battle over an idealogy than over the possibility of death when one is prosperous. To avoid the problem of Vietnam, a spark needed to be generated, something to put a mass movement into motion, and justify an enaction of the program that would bring about a political buffer zone. 9/11 gave that spark, finally giving the neocons a way to see a realization of their dreams. Self-serving? Yes. But isn't it a main purpose of government to see to the needs of its people? Beneficial to the people of the Middle East and the world as a whole? Also yes. It means more freedom, greater economic boosts, and fewer sleepless nights about which unstable regime might be holding the nukes next. I've never met a single person who would say that a second North Korea would be a Good Thing. |
|||
Darth Roflbbq Buzz Blob Level: 26  Posts: 66/299 EXP: 98407 For next: 3868 Since: 11-05-04 Since last post: 163 days Last activity: 163 days |
| ||
| And thus, as America's tax dollars go down, so does respect for us. HONESTLY, Bush, you need to stop spending our goddamn money that we worked so hard for! |
|||
geeogree Bloober Level: 34  Posts: 268/448 EXP: 231583 For next: 22068 Since: 03-16-04 From: Calgary, Canada Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 11 hours |
| ||
| you don't get it do you? Bush is creating democratic states instead of having the tyrannys in the Middle East so that there is less money and less opportunity for the USA to be attacked again.... a democratic nation is also easier to fight if they do "go bad" and attack the US.... you all complain about Bush so much (even I have).... but he is making the US safer in the end.... and eventually the middle east will be safer as well.... |
|||
alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99  Posts: 2582/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
| ||
Originally posted by geeogree Lets see here. Some nations don't want democracy. Various nations, in fact, like Maldova, have elected to not be democratic. Democracy doesn't work in collapsed regions because massive corruption takes hold. Ever see an Eastern Europe capitol city? It's fucking scary. This "democracy" you speak of is capitalism, and not everyone needs an inherently corrupt system to rule their nation. |
|||
|
Kefka Indefinitely Unbanned Level: 81 Posts: 2579/3392 EXP: 4826208 For next: 166641 Since: 03-15-04 From: Pomona, CALIFORNIA BABY! Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
| ||
| As long as we support Israel in their conflict with Palestine, we will have conflict with lots of Muslim countries, which mostly happen to be in the Middle East. We can't occupy Iraq forever, and once we leave, more corruption will follow, and likely another dictator will arise. This opinion, of course, is just based on our trying to instill democracy into South America in the past. If it won't work in already Christian countries, then why would it work in Muslim-based countries that generally tend to hate our guts? If you really want to have a productive overthrow of a dictator that can go somewhere, North Korea has a huge famine due to KJI's unwillingness for foreign aid of any kind, and lack of concern for the issue. North Koreans are on average 4 inches shorter than South Koreans due to malnutrition and, well, no food. Often North Koreans drop out of school in like, the 6th or 7th grade, just so they can find food. Plus, KJI is waving his arms up and down and shoving the fact that he has 1 WMD down our throats. The guy took WMD as a priority over food and water. Why don't we go there to help their people? Much more of the world would be at our back, as there are plenty of other countries that would be happy to give aid to the people there. People are constantly trying to flee from that country, and only sometimes are they successful. In these countries that we are trying to instill capitalism in right now, VERY few people are trying to run (yes, even from the ones we havent gone into yet). So if our interest was to free the people from tyranny, our first objective would be North Korea, then Afghanistan probably, then the rest of the Middle East, with Iran being first on the list. But the priority list right now is Iraq, then Iran, then Afghanistan (what is really being done to correct the corruption that happened in the most recent elections there?). So, while I cannot tell exactly what the motives are, it certainly is NOT to free people in need, because there are places like where we are that need the help more urgently, and we know that. |
|||
|
alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 2585/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
| ||
| Because NK is a far harder target to hit than Iraq. No one gave a fuck about Iraq, but Israel and America. North Korea is allied with China, will lash out on the South and attack Japan. Why fight a hard war with nothing to gain when there is an oil rich nation that has a collapsed military infrastructure? | |||
|
Kefka Indefinitely Unbanned Level: 81 Posts: 2581/3392 EXP: 4826208 For next: 166641 Since: 03-15-04 From: Pomona, CALIFORNIA BABY! Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
| ||
Originally posted by Ziffski Once we have milked the place of all its resources that we can get, then what will be left for the people we are supposedly trying to help? And all I was saying was that the motive was something other than helping free the people in need, because the priority list of countries would be different if this was the case. But yes, it's hard to get into NK, perhaps even harder than it will be to get out of the Middle East. And yes, I have to hand it to you, good point  |
|||
|
Generation Terrorist Mini Octorok Level: 7 Posts: 17/18 EXP: 1355 For next: 93 Since: 12-22-04 From: 100 steps forward, 99 steps back. Since last post: 279 days Last activity: 242 days |
| ||
| But the priority list right now is Iraq, then Iran, then Afghanistan (what is really being done to correct the corruption that happened in the most recent elections there?). Take a look at the map. Notice anything about Iraq and Afghanistan? As for Iran, there's already a lot of discontent about the government in the populace. Before the upgrade of the Iranian's nuclear program, it was a simpler matter to wait for things amongst the people to come to a head. Of course, that's changed now. Some nations don't want democracy. It doesn't matter. All it takes for the social contract to be null and void is one person who doesn't like the government. The only system that can really solve that problem and give a voice to all concerned is that on a democratic model. Democracy doesn't work in collapsed regions because massive corruption takes hold. Ever see an Eastern Europe capitol city? That's because its easier to work up that sort've corruption in an economically impoverished area. Don't you remember the politics of the Industrial Revolution? When you have a lot of desperate people, they're going to follow what they think can get them out of poverty. This "democracy" you speak of is capitalism, and not everyone needs an inherently corrupt system to rule their nation. Inherently corrupt? XD |
|||
Grey the Stampede Don't mess with powers you don't understand. And yes. That means donuts. Level: 82  Posts: 1623/3770 EXP: 5192909 For next: 16318 Since: 06-17-04 From: Kingston, RI, USA, Earth Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
| ||
Originally posted by Generation Terrorist I stopped listening when you made yourself into my hypocrite of the day. The entire BASIS of "American" democratic countries is to give the people a sense of "freedom", and yet you're saying that these countries that have had democracy instilled in them don't have the freedom to not choose democracy? Aren't they supposed to be, you know, "free"? Or are they just "under American rule"? |
|||
|
Generation Terrorist Mini Octorok Level: 7 Posts: 18/18 EXP: 1355 For next: 93 Since: 12-22-04 From: 100 steps forward, 99 steps back. Since last post: 279 days Last activity: 242 days |
| ||
| Way to ignore the rest of my post, which provides the basis for my statement. Calling me a hypocrite is all well and fine, but if you don't want to face the music, stay away from the concert hall, buddy. Rhetoric is all well and fine, but the purpose of conversation is to refine your own thinking, not shove your fingers in your ears and say, " I don't like you, I'm not listening!" Even if a hundred percent of the people in a country could agree that they didn't want to have a democracy (doubtful), then you would still have to decide on a political system. And this political system, in order to provide the freedom that a person would have under a democracy/that would allow a vote to return to democracy if the populace so wished, would have to be on the democratic model. Democracies are about minority protection as much as they are majority rule. (edited by Generation Terrorist on 01-26-05 03:04 PM) |
|||
|
alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 2666/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
| ||
| Circular argument ensues when people bring up logical argument rules. Due to the concept of ad hominem attacks being based on personal movements, the pointing out of ad hominem attacks contradict themselves and ruin debate. Some nations don't want American democracy would be preferrable, as it too easily extorts the weak and poor. That is the reason when various political systems can say screw it to economic democracy and move to a social democratic system. There is a reason why Parliamentery democracy isn't used vastly in the world, and there is a reason why American presidential democracy is on the decline, they aren't truly democratic anymore. Luckily the Zapatista movements and other self-liberating groups are fighting back. |
|||
Kitten Yiffer Purple wand Furry moderator Vivent l'exp����¯�¿�½������©rience de signalisation d'amusement, ou bien ! Level: 135 Posts: 7420/11162 EXP: 28824106 For next: 510899 Since: 03-15-04 From: Sweden Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 4 min. |
| ||
Originally posted by ZiffskiBut would it be possible to have a "inbetween" goverment before getting Democracy?  Most succeful Democracies started from a monarchy with a few expections.And it honestly depends on what type of "Democracy", US and European countries is diffrent when it compares to Democracy, and from what I heard it's only Switzerland who have "true" Democracy. I would like to see China and North korea heading out of their type of goverment system, becuse of the damn censor they have there. I can't stand goverments censoring stuff from their people. (hell, it's really not pure communism. And in US, it's the media who censors not the goverment... talk about a diffrence). (edited by Kitten Yiffer on 01-26-05 03:24 PM) |
|||
|
johnceeking Newcomer Level: 3 Posts: 1/3 EXP: 86 For next: 42 Since: 01-27-05 Since last post: 278 days Last activity: 276 days |
| ||
Originally posted by Samur4iX Pardon me; Weaker countries? Iran and Iraq are or were by no means "weak" nations. Militarily, they wield much more power than Saudi Arabia possibly could. The Saudis benefit from economic ties and sheer wealth, they don't need as powerful a military as other, less influential nations. Iraq simply had the misfortune of gaining the ill attention of the most powerful military power in existence. Compared to the United States, sure, they're weak nations. Compared to most other nations? No, they aren't. It's all our economic ties with the Saudis that prevent us from going after them. "Weaker" and "stronger" have nothing to do with that situation. |
|||
|
Grey the Stampede Don't mess with powers you don't understand. And yes. That means donuts. Level: 82 Posts: 1632/3770 EXP: 5192909 For next: 16318 Since: 06-17-04 From: Kingston, RI, USA, Earth Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
| ||
Originally posted by Generation Terrorist You're STILL not getting it. Democracy gives people freedom, but the democratic countries in the world don't have the freedom to switch away from democracy because the country that instilled it in them (That's America, if you didn't already know) INSISTS that it's the right way to go, when it might not be for that country. My issue isn't with the ins and outs of democracy, it's with you not being able to accept the fact that sometimes, democracy isn't right. Especially not for countries that don't want it. EDIT: And yes, that means I do advocate dictatorships in some countries, and parliamentary rule in other countries, and tyrannies in others (it worked for ancient greece because they used the REAL definition of a tyrant), and democracy in other countries, and constitutional monarchies, and regular monarchies. To play the name game, mine's Grey for a reason. Think neutrally, for once. You don't wanna face the music? Then stay away from the concert hall, buddy. (edited by Grey on 01-27-05 06:45 AM) |
|||
|
johnceeking Newcomer Level: 3 Posts: 2/3 EXP: 86 For next: 42 Since: 01-27-05 Since last post: 278 days Last activity: 276 days |
| ||
| *cough, cough* Am I to understand that a democracy is simply giving free will to the people to decide whoever they want to rule them and decide however they wish to be ruled? I'm right? Phew, by the opinions of some people on this board toward democracy, I'd almost forgotten that it allowed people to choose for themselves. I guess it must be a bad thing, allowing people to choose for themselves and allowing them to be able to change their minds if things don't go so well. We couldn't have that, now could we? Secondly: Capitalism is inherently corrupt? The alternative, then, is socialism. Socialism is morally justifiable, HOW? Forcing the productive and able citizens to work for the benefit of those less productive and capable than themselves isn't exactally fair. Also, it never works. History has shown that in a command economy, the command will take unceasingly from the workers and give only a bare minimum back. There are, as yet, no exceptions to this rule. Every socialist nation in history has seen the workers, their precious proletariat, spiral into an ever-lower standard of living. *cough, cough* |
|||
|
alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 2676/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
| ||
| John, is that post alluding to current events on the boarding that are occuring due to the staff restructure? Edit:: Socialism doesn't work? SCANDINAVIA! (edited by Ziffski on 01-27-05 11:30 PM) |
|||
|
johnceeking Newcomer Level: 3 Posts: 3/3 EXP: 86 For next: 42 Since: 01-27-05 Since last post: 278 days Last activity: 276 days |
| ||
| I'm very much new, so I wouldn't know a lot about any staff restructuring. Actually, I don't know a darn thing about it, =P So in answer to your question, nope. As far as the socialism, I was speaking of purely command economies. Social capitalisms are what seems to be more common in Europe. I am still opposed, however. The largest extent of socialism I am willing to tolerate is Social Security or Medicare/Medicaid. Basically, help people who have been crippled or stricken by old age, things wholly beyond their control. The main body of my response was to the claim that capitalism is inherently corrupt, though. That assertion always angers me. Humans are inherently corrupt, any system will be corrupted. Capitalism, to me, seems to be the least inherently corrupt system of them all. Sure, individual capitalists can be more corrupt, but that's their choice, and adequate laws and enforcement can deal with it. Other systems are just plain corrupt in and of themselves. If people were perfect, any system would work perfectly. The flaw is always the humans. Capitalism allows the people, by themselves, to be the virtues or the flaws, it provides none for them. That's what I love about it. |
|||
|
alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 2688/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
| ||
| Yes, humans, and everything that we deem pure is inherently corrupt. My beef with capitalism is that it creates a higher disparity between the rich and the poor than there should be. Specifically between the have and have not countries. The assertions that are made by any nation to protect its economic virility (face it, economics boil down to the second big of penis envy after militarism). Its interests fail to help the poor. Especially with privitization. Perhaps the experiences that many Canadians have had when faced with a less and less socially minded government have soiled in our minds the benefits of having less and less centralized government. All I know is that given that the poverty rates here are increasing, and this comes in a time when various necessary utilities in Canada are being privitized, and no offer was made by our government to stop American companies coming up here and buying our electricity/water and then exporting it. Just 14 months ago there was a 1000% increase in my families hydro bill. The 140% increase in our water didn't help either. |
| Pages: 1 2 | Add to favorites | "RSS" Feed | Next newer thread | Next older thread |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Uh-oh, spaghettios. |
| | |
