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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Life or Death |
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Tamarin Calanis We exist. Earth exists. The universe exists. Do we really need to know why? Level: 59 Posts: 263/1802 EXP: 1672751 For next: 377 Since: 07-12-04 From: The gas station on the corner... Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 5 hours |
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| Can't believe the death penalty hasn't been debated yet - and if it has, please point me to the thread. What are your opinions on the death penalty? Is it a barbaric remnant of earlier times? An effective way of keeping criminals off the streets? Or a waste of everyone's time? Personally, I go with that last one. Execution cannot be made exceedingly painful like it should be so people are getting relatively painless deaths considering what they probably put others through. There is the monetary consideration for keeping them in prison for the rest of their life, but... Anyway, before I ramble on needlessly and make people not want to read this, go ahead and discuss. I'll throw in more of my opinion later when I feel like typing it. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99  Posts: 2332/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Execution is a basic extension of cyclical violence. It stands for nothing to gain, and causes more harm than good as the most violent offenders generally stand to have serious complexes. | |||
Rydain Ropa Blaze Phoenix Runs With the Dragon Within Level: 42  Posts: 381/738 EXP: 490056 For next: 31306 Since: 03-15-04 From: State College, PA Since last post: 6 days Last activity: 8 hours |
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| I am against the death penalty mainly because there's always the chance of wrongfully executing an innocent person. If that person has been imprisoned for the crime, that was certainly quite unfortunate, but at least they can be released. If they're exonerated after an execution, it's not as if you can resurrect them. It's tempting to think that the death penalty is the ultimate justice for unremorseful mass murderers like, say, Timothy McVeigh, but consider the plight of people who are arrested for something they didn't do and lack the resources to adequately defend themselves in court or simply get screwed over by fraud on the part of the government (see Ernest Williams' case for an example of this). Is it really worthwhile to allow for the possibility of killing innocent people just so the state can exact "eye for an eye" justice against the obviously guilty? Amnesty International provides some more reasons for opposing the death penalty as well. | |||
hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38  Posts: 479/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Unless they streamline the appeals process, I'm against the death penalty because it tends to cost more to execute someone than to keep them in prison until they die. Which is a shame.. although I've watched enough Law and Order to realize that it makes a good bargaining chip in prosecutions as well. Yea, I'm a realist. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 2339/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Or you get people like Timothy McVeigh who want to die. The best way to deal with justice is life inprisonment and the costs of the death sentence per annum be put towards more intensive rehab programs. |
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geeogree Bloober Level: 34  Posts: 257/448 EXP: 231583 For next: 22068 Since: 03-16-04 From: Calgary, Canada Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 11 hours |
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| I'm for it, but only in certain extreme cases.... like serial killers, multiple murder type instances... but not as a general thing.... |
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Dracoon Zelda The temp ban/forum ban bypasser! Level: 84  Posts: 2259/3727 EXP: 5514391 For next: 147561 Since: 03-25-04 From: At home Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 5 hours |
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| If it is proven without possible doubt, then I'm for it, but if it is arguable, then no. I do prefer life sentence, if it is actually a life sentence. If they eventually get out, than no... Why don't we just use a bullet through the brain, it'd cost a lot less. |
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Zarathud Level: 12  Posts: 51/55 EXP: 7184 For next: 737 Since: 12-27-04 From: Terra, Sol. Since last post: 294 days Last activity: 294 days |
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| I've become dissillusioned with the idea that the death penalty has any appreciably greater deterrent effect than the threat of a life sentence. It has a negligable if not nonexistent effect, and the consequences of a false positive are far worse than in cases of unjust imprisonment where compensation can be given to the falsely accused. At the same time, it just seems senseless to keep people alive who are guilty of heinous crimes beyond the slightest possibility of doubt (i.e. they admit it). So I would like to keep it an option in exceptional circumstances, but the bar of evidence needs to be even higher than it would be for a normal conviction due to the seriousness of the punishment. Scum like McVeigh, once their guilt is nolonger contested by anyone, shouldn't go on wasting air. Unfortunately as hhallahh mentioned, the transaction costs of the appeals process would need to be significantly lowered in order for this to be worthwhile. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 2365/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Interesting fact: In Ukraine a few years ago, there was a man standing accused of killing five people, via disembowllment. He was to be summarily executed for his crimes, as he admitted himself to being the criminal. A week after his sentencing, he was walking free in Svestpool because the real killer had been caught. People admit to these things to get attention, or to die. I've yet to see conclusive evidence that state-sanctioned killing is given to anything but negative consequences. Zarathud - condoning murder of mass murderers turns you into one yourself. The death sentence stands not only as detracting to a society, but also as a glaring hypocricy. Anyone who supports it in any case has been lowered to the level of a murderer or some form of slavering beast. |
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The SomerZ Summer, yay! Level: 45  Posts: 621/862 EXP: 618182 For next: 41982 Since: 03-15-04 From: Norway Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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Back in the days when I wore buttons I had one that said "Why do we kill people who kill people to show people that killing people is wrong?". Banal? Yes, I would have to admit so, but it still sums up my general viewpoint on the death-penalty (which I know will be perceived as quite banal, but meh.  ). I've heard people talking about the cost of keeping people in prison vs. the cost of executing them. I find this to be a cynical way of thinking. Everyone has a right to life, even so-called scum like McVeigh, and I don't quite understand how anyone can believe they are allowed to decide who lives and who dies. This is basically also my one main problem with utilitarianism; no matter what the economical or social gain for society, killing is wrong. Oh, for those of you who speak French, the Belgian artist Franquin made a good one-page comic about the death penalty once. It's the one in the top right corner on this page. |
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Zarathud Level: 12 Posts: 55/55 EXP: 7184 For next: 737 Since: 12-27-04 From: Terra, Sol. Since last post: 294 days Last activity: 294 days |
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| Ziff - "...condoning murder of mass murderers turns you into one yourself. The death sentence stands not only as detracting to a society, but also as a glaring hypocricy. Anyone who supports it in any case has been lowered to the level of a murderer or some form of slavering beast." It's only hypicrisy if you believe that everyone has an unconditional right to life. I don't. The act of mass-murder is a tacit admission that the murderer is not willing to play by the same rules as everybody else. Tit-for-tat in such cases is a perfectly reasonable strategy, though we can argue over whether or not it's optimal. It may not be. But as soon as someone commits premeditated murder (assuming of course that we have no difficulty at all proving this), they forfeit their own right to life. After that the only question is over what would be the most efficient way of disposing of them. I respect everyone's right to life until they signal that they don't respect mine; then all bets are off. Somerz - "Everyone has a right to life, even so-called scum like McVeigh, and I don't quite understand how anyone can believe they are allowed to decide who lives and who dies. This is basically also my one main problem with utilitarianism; no matter what the economical or social gain for society, killing is wrong." So if some guy pulls out a machine gun in the middle of a crowded market and starts firing at people, it would be morally wrong for me to gun him down in order to stop him from killing others? Are you sure about that? Pre-emptive response: yes, I know that once you've captured and subdued the guy, the emergency is over and killing him is not necissary. But it doesn't matter. Once you've acknowledged that killing is right in some cases, we've passed that threshold and are just arguing over under what circumstances it's permissable to kill people. Welcome to consequentialism. |
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Kefka Indefinitely Unbanned Level: 81 Posts: 2543/3392 EXP: 4826208 For next: 166641 Since: 03-15-04 From: Pomona, CALIFORNIA BABY! Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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Originally posted by Zarathud How's it hypocritical for ME to think that everyone has the right to live unconditionally? You might be able to argue that it is hypocritical for the murderer to think that, but um, I've never killed anyone, and don't plan to, because I believe that everyone has the right to live. So um, I don't see the hypocrisy from myself there. Originally posted by Zarathud A few things: 1) Most murderers come from very poor economic positions, and often the motivation for killing stems from this; as children, they grew up around crime, and as adults, it has become part of their nature. For this reason, I don't think that all murderers are cold-hearted bastards. Many of them have a conscience that has been skewed by their experiences, much like ours. It is just that theirs has been skewed in a way that makes most of the people growing up in more fortunate situations to view them as hateful people. Because of the culture that many of the murders grew up in, I still think that they are humans just like us, but they tend to have psychological problems that they had no oppurtunity to harness, and they grow up around crime, skewing their view of the way most of us think that life should be lived. They are humans, and if one can't be compassionate enough to see that, then they are as coldhearted as they imagine the murderers to be. 2) Mental disorders are a common disability that murderers have. Some people in this state don't even have a conscience at all. Are you going to kill them for having a disability? How about we just kill off everyone with a mental disorder, whether they've killed someone or not? After all, just by the state they can be in at times (exhibited by murderers), they are a threat to society, right? 3) Now, granted, there are SOME, but not a lot, of murderers who have full mental capabilities and grew up in fortunate situations. It is more arguable to sentence these people to death, but in this case, I have nothing to tell you other than 1) people at a higher economic level tend to have the jury in favor of them before the trial even begins, thus making this whole segment moot (since often they won't be sentenced to death anyway), and 2) my compassion kicks in, recognizing them as humans too, and giving them an oppurtunity to have a productive life in prison. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 2397/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Zarathud, is it instinctive for you to carry a pistol into a crowded marketplace anyways? Your entire argument is simply saying "I'm justified in killing you because you killed someone by your own will!". So, by this, you, by your will premeditated the murder of the murderer because of the deliberations proving his guilt. Wowwee, if that isn't hyprocricy I have no clue what is. | |||
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 483/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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Originally posted by Kefka He meant that it's only hypocritical to support the death penalty if you believe that everyone has an unconditional right to live (well, "hypocritical" isn't the right term here, "contradictary" is..) If you think everyone has that right and you oppose the death penalty.. then there's no hypocrisy. Originally posted by Kefka Irrelevant. And you don't have to believe that murderers are cold-hearted bastards to support the death penalty. Out of all the (serious) arguments for the death penalty, revenge is definately the worse. However, unless you're saying that murderers aren't responsible for their actions (and if that's so, why punish them at all?), then appealing to some chain of causality beyond their control is a worthless point. Yes, it can be argued that some people are less able to resist homicidal urges than others. If this is really the case, that's why we have the insanity defense. Whether or not we should have it is a different issue, but if people are really so out of control, they won't be executed. However, the way you present the argument is still bad, since it works on the argument that people who are at higher demographic risk of committing certain behaviours shouldn't be punished in the same manner... which is an argument with some very strange implications... depending where you go with it. Originally posted by Ziffski Wow, you're quite the deontologist, I guess. It's wrong to kill, even to prevent the mass deaths of others? Unfortunately, the vast majority of people in this world would disagree with that. Imagine this scenario: "It would've been wrong to shoot down the planes of the 9/11 hijackers if we could've, because killing is wrong." Not many people will agree. |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35  Posts: 244/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| Strangely enough, my viewpoint is summed up by the Marquis de Sade: "to kill a man in a paroxysm of passion is understandable, but to have him killed by someone else after calm and serious meditation and on the pretext of duty honourably discharged is incomprehensible" State sanctioned death is icky, icky territory to me. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 2398/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| hhallahh, to speak from the magic of ignorance must be bliss! To see the world from glasses without tint of wretched experience, ah by the heavens how that must be! To never have had anyone die within your hands, or to never have experienced such agony! Lo, it is the man whose hands and innocence lost who hath the best interpretation! The vast majority of the world wallows in poverty, and don't see the world from the persepective of a spoiled American Conservative or a pampered Canadian Socialist. Your point is completely if you choose to rule out the poverty argument of Kefka. |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 486/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| I'm not going to accept the argument that the rule of law is inherantly unjust because some people are more disadvantaged by it than others, sorry. Even if you could make a good argument for it philosophically, it would be a disaster in the real world (which is ultimately what counts) if we were to have any kind of system meant to remedy these "injustices." A policy's worth is in its practical - not metaphysical - value. You can argue that my "spoiled American conservative" perspective makes me misinterpret the practical value of things, but my basic point is not a product of this perspective.. |
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Generation Terrorist Mini Octorok Level: 7 Posts: 15/18 EXP: 1355 For next: 93 Since: 12-22-04 From: 100 steps forward, 99 steps back. Since last post: 279 days Last activity: 242 days |
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| A person that has killed another person has demonstrated not only the capacity (which anybody has), but the willingness to kill another person. They're a loose cannon. Crime of passion, premeditation, insanity - there's only so much rehabilitation can do. I don't hold with the poverty argument either - I've lived all my life around people who are skirting the edges of subsistence mode, or actually there, and very rarely have I ever encountered anybody who holds morals that makes murder acceptable. If a dog kills a human, we kill the dog, as it is a threat to the species. The same holds true for a 'renegade' human. hhallahh, to speak from the magic of ignorance must be bliss! To see the world from glasses without tint of wretched experience, ah by the heavens how that must be! To never have had anyone die within your hands, or to never have experienced such agony! Lo, it is the man whose hands and innocence lost who hath the best interpretation! Rhetoric makes the baby Jesus cry. |
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Halo2-tankwhore Goomba Level: 9  Posts: 7/30 EXP: 2833 For next: 329 Since: 01-09-05 From: I'm being that kid... Since last post: 161 days Last activity: 161 days |
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Originally posted by Dracoon You know what, the whole thing about the innocent person being killed almost swayed me. I am a devout Christian, and the Biblical answer is to make sure beyond doubt that the accused is guilty, and then turn them over to the victims family. They were called the seven cities of refuge, and they were basically appeal courts. You must realize; however, that our American tax-paying dollars go to keeping convicted serial killers alive. They could be going toward something more useful like putting armor on vehicles that American soldiers in Iraq are using and getting killed in. |
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Samur4iX Double hammer Banned. Level: 9 Posts: 11/28 EXP: 2523 For next: 639 Since: 01-16-05 Since last post: 287 days Last activity: 259 days |
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| unlike what you may have heard, life in prison is as bad as or worse than death, like rotting away in a box. Although i agree, why the formalites, just shoot them in the head instead of "lethal injection" and part of the reason most of crimes are done by poor people is cause majority of people are POOR! |
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