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2 users currently in General Chat:  Dark Vampriel |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - General Chat - Do you believe in fate? |
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Alastor the Stylish Hey! I made a cool game! It's called "I poisoned half the food, so if you eat you might die!" Have a taco.  Level: 114  Posts: 4357/7620 EXP: 16258468 For next: 51099 Since: 03-15-04 From: Oregon, US Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Eh, I've heard of that theory before, Kefka. I believe everything is predetermined, all based on things that have happened before or will happen. If you had a computer that was programmed completely flawlessly and has all the information in the universe, it could accurately tell you exactly what will happen when :x Of course, a problem develops when you feel like being contrary and know what is supposed to happen, but then, the computer would know that, and it all gets very confusing. |
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Colleen Administrator Level: 136 Posts: 6046/11302 EXP: 29369328 For next: 727587 Since: 03-15-04 From: LaSalle, Quebec, Canada Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| You don't know what you're capable of until you actually try. I'd have to go with destiny over fate for that reason. |
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Nebetsu Shmee Level: 55 Posts: 764/1574 EXP: 1291130 For next: 23059 Since: 09-01-04 From: Nebland Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| I believe that we have predetermined destinies, but whether we choose them or not is entirely up to us. | |||
Smallhacker Green Birdo SMW Hacking Moderator Level: 68  Posts: 1211/2273 EXP: 2647223 For next: 81577 Since: 03-15-04 From: Söderhamn, Sweden Since last post: 10 hours Last activity: 9 hours |
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| If there's nothing in the universe that's true random, then everything can only follow one path since everything leads to something else ("Cause and effect" - Merovingian). There is no such thing as free will. If there are anything in the universe that's 100% random, then I have no idea. |
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Zarathud Level: 12  Posts: 44/55 EXP: 7184 For next: 737 Since: 12-27-04 From: Terra, Sol. Since last post: 294 days Last activity: 294 days |
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| [ ACHTUNG: Long, slighty high-brow and very immodest post ahead. ] Oh dear, it's amateur philosophy night I see. It's like karaoke for intellectuals and hurts my head every bit as much, but on the plus side you can teach people good philosophy even if you can't teach them to sing. Before I go into the big stuff, I'll answer Chriti's second question first because it's simpler: Originally posted by Christi I have never encountered a single person who was not, in their own estimation, pursuing the good. Everyone from philanthropists to businessmen to terrorists are doing what they think is right in their own view. The problem is that quite often they're just wrong. So I think that, generally speaking, we are all good but we are also all a little stupid. The upshot of this is that stupidity is theoretically easier to remedy than evil. Now, on to the whole free will/destiny issue. As a smart fellow I know recently said: "this is the language of theology and I will have no truck with it." I prefer to deal in verifiable empirical claims and falsifiable theories, thankyouveddymuch. So here are a few basic statements: 1) The knowable universe is made up of various types of matter and energy. People can talk about supernatural forces if they want, but the bottom line is that everything we observe is explainable without them and they're impossible to empirically verify or falsify anyway, and hence pretty useless concepts. 2) All matter and energy follows certain regularities of cause and effect; we may not necissarily understand everything about these regularities, but we can be confident that they are there and all we have to do is discover them. Anyone who doesn't believe this has some explaining to do, since this is the only thing that allows us to make any sense of the universe at all, and everything we know supports it. 3) We are made up of matter and energy, just like everything else. This includes our brains, the whole shebang. This is where people usually start to see where we're headed and get a little queasy. Yes, the processes of our brains follow causal laws just like everything else. No, the idea of a "soul" won't change that. If you buy the first two points, then you necissarily buy this one too. That's it. If you buy those three points, then you're a filthy (soft) determinist like me. People tend to get hung up on this because we tend to think of physics in the abstract as if it's something seperate from "us", when in fact we are a continuous part of phsyics. Picture a three-dimensional cube of space, then picture a bunch of atoms doing things inside it. This space can be filled with gas, crystals, a ball rolling down a hill, a fire, bacteria, a frog, a monkey, a human, anything at all. The only difference is the arrangement and behaviour of the matter and energy. Some people find this thought disconcerting, but I think it's damn cool. What we call consciousness is a remarkably complex information-storage and processing system. A computer program can be made to select the best percieved move in a chess game, and what humans do isn't fundamentally different; just a heck of a lot more complicated. We select whatever appears to be the optimal choice from the available data we have. That's all. This doesn't even have to be a "conscious" process: everything from RNA to viruses to ants to dogs do it, they just don't have the processing capacity and reflexive feedback loops that give rise to what we call "consciousness". However, none of this should be cause for despair and fatalism. This doesn't change anything in our everyday life. Pain is still pain and pleasure is still pleasure, we can still appreciate life, our experiences and our emotions for what they are, we can still have rational ethical discussions, and we need not relinquish the idea that we can and do make choices. We just have to strip away the fuzzy metaphysical connotations of the idea of "choice". Choice means changing our behaviour based on new input; no more, no less. We can still analyze what the best behaviours are (ethics) just like always, but at least now we can have a clearer head about it. (Believe it or not this is the simple form of the argument. I've seen all of this proven mathematically, it would just take a lot more background explanation.) (edited by Zarathud on 01-07-05 01:09 PM) |
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Ran-chan Moldorm eek, when are they going to stop growing... Level: 143  Posts: 6506/12781 EXP: 35293588 For next: 538220 Since: 03-15-04 From: Nerima District, Tokyo - Japan Since last post: 12 hours Last activity: 12 hours |
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Prier Archangel Administrative Priestess. NUCLEAR SUB WEEEOOOO Level: 119  Posts: 4652/8392 EXP: 18790939 For next: 138352 Since: 03-15-04 From: Nerima Dist. - Tokyo, Japan Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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| Okay...lesse if I can take a crack at this a piece at a time... >>> Originally posted by Christi It could very possibly be yes or no. I'm not exactly sure myself, but at the moment, I'd rather not say that I'm fated to be a moron through life or anything. Some things I can predict to happen at times, or will feel like I'm screwed and have to do something anyways no matter what, but there are times when I can actually take a step back and breathe. Or conversely...if I wanted to...I could take a pistol and wonder what happens if I pull the trigger when I have it up against my forehead. I really think our lives are too fragile to be fated to anything really...if there is something, it's pretty cruel for the majority...but at the same time fate can be rather kind to some people that would luck out. So either are pretty sufficient against the other...but you'll probably feel better if you think you're in charge of your own life. I know I do. Originally posted by Christi That's another tough one...as much as I want to say that all forms of life on here are created to what they think is right in the world...the whole system of right and wrong is skewed because EVERYONE has their own system of what is right and what is wrong. You don't believe me?...well...you just proved my point. I would place the whole concept of hope that we, as a race of humans, won't doom ourselves to falling for some religious downfall because of sin or whatever...even though a large amount of the world today looks rather sorry in comparison to others...there's always the hope that a little kid is going to go out and pick violets or some other type of flower for their mother with a card that says 'Get Well Soon' on it, you know to make the other person feel better, out of selflessness. I don't really think one runs -over- the other, as long as a person is balanced and hasn't gone mental yet or something. If you were all good or all bad, in your opinion (yes, I added all bad for those that think they're OMG BADASS), you might end up being the opposite in other people's eyes. People may see those that try to make themselves look good as some dumbass bigot who thinks they have a large head and is obviously doing stuff for an alterior motive just to stir crowds up...and those that think themselves bad either in the obvious or hopeless right may have a few people that look at them and go...you know...there might be more to this person than just this thing that surrounds them about being one of the worst people in the world. Many systems to consider here, none really being the correct one by any means. So really, I don't think it's either. It would border on the whole Yin-Yang concept. Neither will yield to the other, and when the other one does, it usually ends up with the person's demise...whether status-wise or fatally. (edited by Rain on 01-07-05 02:37 PM) |
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Cid Shyguy Level: 17 Posts: 82/93 EXP: 21804 For next: 2939 Since: 03-21-04 From: Prescott Since last post: 288 days Last activity: 249 days |
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| I don't believe in it, I think people have control of there own destiny, of course I had no reasons to believe in it either. | |||
knuck Hinox Banned until 19-58-5815: trolling, flaming, spamming, being a general fucktard... Level: 62 Posts: 1028/1818 EXP: 1894574 For next: 90112 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 9 hours |
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Originally posted by SmallhackerWow Smallhacker, that was the ebst way to explain what i think. You rock. |
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Silvershield Slime Level: 30 Posts: 316/345 EXP: 153029 For next: 12840 Since: 04-11-04 From: New Jersey Since last post: 60 days Last activity: 6 hours |
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| The question of fate is a difficult one for me to answer. I believe strongly in the omniscience of God, including the notion that he has complete knowledge of the future. With that in mind, it follows that God knows what I will do before I even conceive of doing it. In that case, did I really choose to take the action that I did? It must have already been determined, because God knew it would happen, right? Yet, at the same time, I believe God vested man with free will, and the capacity to choose without restriction. Hmmm...I really don't know what to say. Heh heh. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99  Posts: 2322/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by Silvershield Do what St. Augustine and many of his compatriots did... "God works in mysterious ways". |
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windwaker Ball and Chain Trooper WHY ALL THE MAYONNAISE HATE Level: 61  Posts: 941/1797 EXP: 1860597 For next: 15999 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 4 days Last activity: 6 days |
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| What you choose to do is already set, so you don't have control over the happenings, they are going to happen already. Knuck said something smrt  .I agree with him there; everything that's going to happen is going to happen and you can't alter it. |
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Ramadan Roy Like Like ...Or you'll be wearing your ass for a hat. Renowned Otaku Level: 44 Posts: 484/816 EXP: 569705 For next: 41580 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 13 hours Last activity: 7 hours |
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| I too am also in the same boat as Silvershield, but I am a Muslim. I believe that God already has in mind what our futures will be, but we can change them. However, this sort of disproves my other notion, that since God knows the future, he looked at our good/bad deeds before creating everything and set a chain of events to lead to some sort of blessing or punishment. (however big or small it may be) (edited by The Dogan on 01-11-05 06:40 PM) |
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Zarathud Level: 12 Posts: 54/55 EXP: 7184 For next: 737 Since: 12-27-04 From: Terra, Sol. Since last post: 294 days Last activity: 294 days |
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Originally posted by Silvershield It never ceases to amaze me that anyone can hold two such utterly irreconcilable ideas in their minds at once. Either your actions have been predestined or they haven't. Pick one. But if you really wanna bake your noodle, try Newcomb's Paradox on for size: "Given two boxes, B1 which contains $1000 and B2 which contains either nothing or a million dollars, you may pick either B2 or both. However, at some time before the choice is made, an omniscient Being has predicted what your decision will be and filled B2 with a million dollars if he expects you to take it, or with nothing if he expects you to take both." Think about it for a while. (edited by Zarathud on 01-11-05 07:46 PM) |
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Silvershield Slime Level: 30 Posts: 317/345 EXP: 153029 For next: 12840 Since: 04-11-04 From: New Jersey Since last post: 60 days Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by ZarathudWhile I appreciate your pursuit of logical thought, I'm Catholic. I don't think logically. And I mean that with all sincerity. The logic of our world often does not mesh comfortably with what we are instructed to believe by the Bible and doctrine. I am human, and cannot offer an answer that would suit you, but my mind is at ease knowing that, somehow beyond my comprehension, all things are right. |
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