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| 0 user currently in World Affairs / Debate. |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Partial Birth Abortion |
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Should it be Legal or Illegal| Yes |
50.0%, 8 votes | No |
50.0%, 8 votes | Multi-voting is disabled.
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99  Posts: 1609/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by MathOnNapkins Africa my brother. I am a very staunch Catholic. Incidentally, I'm also a Socialist and see the holes in some of the dated customs of the hard-line Conservative adherents. The way we're dealing with the AIDS crisis makes me wretch. Saying that condoms don't prevent the spread of the virus, saying that they actually heighten the chances of the virus. Publishing books of "research" on how they don't slow the transmissions of STDs. I'm a Catholic, and I see a lot of things as wrong, but I have to realize that I am only one of several hundred million Catholics. I can't break with my faith, but I have to see the holes and think for myself. |
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MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67  Posts: 827/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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| I was more accenting the fact that an earlier poster commented in a way that made it sound as though Catholicism determined their opinion for them, which is not how it should go, I think. Yes you have a very good point, and I was thinking about Africa a little as I wrote my post. But that devolves unto a question of the ends justifying the means. (Saving the lives of sexually active people by using morally unsound means.) Based on my feel for Catholic doctrine, people with Aids shouldn't be having sex at all, as sex is meant for procreation, and people with Aids will not only kill each other eventually but birth a child with Aids as well. So sex with Aids is morally a no no anyways from that standpoint. So thus, on this very sketchy basis you could denounce condoms in any context discussed so far, but I personally feel that it is in reality way too harsh a judgement. But Ziff, I understand you don't follow the Catholic hardline anyways so don't think that this is directed at you in particular. |
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Rydain Ropa Blaze Phoenix Runs With the Dragon Within Level: 42  Posts: 306/738 EXP: 490056 For next: 31306 Since: 03-15-04 From: State College, PA Since last post: 6 days Last activity: 8 hours |
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Originally posted by MorbidMolly That would violate the woman's right to bodily autonomy - a fundamental right that has been recognized by the courts as essential to a free society for hundreds of years. Considering that your very being (i.e. your mind, which is produced by your brain) is dependent on the functioning of your body, that makes sense. The landmark case McFall v. Shimp (Pennsylvania, 1978) clarified that this right is absolute. (judge's opinion) In this case, the courts could not compel a man to do so little as donate his bone marrow to save the life of another born, sentient human being. Thus, upon what grounds could they force a woman to, in the best case, undergo permanent changes to her body and, at worst, risk her health and life in order to gestate an insentient fetus, thereby giving it rights over her bodily resources that it would lose at birth? Upon what grounds could they thus reduce her legal status to lower than that of a corpse, which cannot have its organs removed without prior consent? |
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drjayphd Beamos What's that spell? pimp! Level: 56  Posts: 733/1477 EXP: 1387410 For next: 10766 Since: 03-15-04 From: CT Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by Thomas ...and THAT'S why 16-year-olds can't vote. :> You want to get rid of all abortion? Outlaw the following: * Abortion * Poverty * Coat hangers * Back alleys (Editor's note: The preceding was a gross exaggeration/generalization used to illustrate the flawed nature of his argument. Oh, and stop with the line-breaks. You can do your layout so it doesn't spill over your PRECIOUS DB/Z/GT pic.) In other news, it's a legitimate medical procedure with legitimate uses. Ergo, I vote for it to remain legal. And for usage of the phrase "partial birth abortion" to be punished with rectal insertion of a flip-flop.  |
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Lunar Depths Paragoomba Level: 14  Posts: 63/67 EXP: 11330 For next: 1741 Since: 09-01-04 From: New Jersey Since last post: 105 days Last activity: 105 days |
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| I think it's so interesting to watch debates over this topic. Something I think many people overlook is that when there is an argument over abortion, it is never over the same issue. Even the terms "Pro-Life" (which insinuates those for abortion are "Pro-Death") and "Pro-Choice" (which insinuates those against abortion are "Anti-Choice") are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Granted, a person's religious stance plays a huge part in this, but you still cannot argue religion against rights. They are two seperate entities. In reality, there are two issues in abortion. Issue 1) When is the fetus "alive"? For the religious believers, this is the question of when the body receives the soul. If it is alive while in the womb, is it then a seperate being with seperate rights? Is killing an unborn fetus killing a person? Issue 2) Is it a constitutional right for a woman to choose what happens to her own body? Now as you can see, you cannot argue those two points against each other because they simply don't make sense. It's like arguing that Bush got elected because he's from Texas. Poor example perhaps, but you see my point. It's flawed logic. Instead, we need to be addressing each issue seperately. And really, the only issue to be discussed is the last one. Religious views, sadly enough, cannot be put into law because our country has determined "seperation of church and state." In my opinion, as a Christian, I do not agree with abortion. I will never have one unless it is absolutely necessary for my survival. Or maybe in cases of rape or something. BUT I firmly believe it should be my choice to decide what happens to my body. I should be able to pick if I want to have one or not, just like I can choose to voice my opinion or not, vote or not, own a gun or not. They're all my rights as an American citizen, and regardless if you or I agree with them, someone in this country values it and that's what's important. Our rights must always be protected. |
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MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67 Posts: 887/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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| ^ Well yeah lots of people notice that. It's just that people who feel strongly on the issue will ignore that. They want to make it look like us versus them because then people will take sides. When you're trying to get legislation passed or persuade people it's a lot harder to say, well these people aren't really diametrically opposed to us, they're just coming from a different perspective. That wouldn't work, you have to create conflict in rhetoric. | |||
windwaker Ball and Chain Trooper WHY ALL THE MAYONNAISE HATE Level: 61  Posts: 283/1797 EXP: 1860597 For next: 15999 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 4 days Last activity: 6 days |
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| I honestly think it should be legalized. If it wasn't, the mother would find some way to get it done, even though I may disagree with the morals of it. | |||
hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38  Posts: 441/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Partial Birth Abortion: Should it be Legal or Illegal Yes No Hm, I'd have to go with 'yes' here... partial birth abortion should be either legal or illegal. I support abortion on demand. It's murder, but it's okay, because it's not like any of us has an interest in a fetus, right? Right. Next question! The interesting thing - and I see this a lot from religious people - is the reasoning that "fetuses are people, and killing people is wrong, but I don't want to impose my views on others". I refer to this as the "John Kerry" argument on abortion for obvious reasons. It also makes no damn sense. If your beliefs tell you that a fetus is a person, and you believe killing innocents should always be illegal, then you should be pro-life. Period. It's not a matter of imposing your religious beliefs... if I believe that a child isn't human until it's five years old, would it be violating my rights if I'm tried for murder when I kill my 3-year old for whatever reason? Obviously not. Generally, everyone (except for me!) agrees that "Killing innocent people is wrong." However, just because my definition of a "person" might be different than yours doesn't mean I can get away with slaughter. It's a really bad position to take. Other bad arguments: "It should be legal because people would do it anyways." - Um, no. Should this rule be applied to other kinds of crimes? I guarantee that abortions being illegal would drop the abortion rate.  I also guarantee that murders being illegal drops the murder rate. Should murder be legal, though, because people can do it anyways? Of course not. You don't say "if you're going to commit murder, we'll make sure that you do it safely" to a would-be murderer, do you? I'd hope not.More bad arguments as I bother to read them! (edited by hhallahh on 11-10-04 04:18 AM) |
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MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67 Posts: 893/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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| The point of the "they're going to do it anyway" argument for abortion is that it is far more dangerous and unsanitary for a woman to get an abortion with a coathanger or whatever. I'm talking women who actually need an abortion or they'll die. Obviously making illegal would decrease the rate of people getting abortions overall - legal or illegal. I think way too many women would be scared/horrified to resorting to that. Hell maybe it would make the pregnancy rate drop too. (I can only hope.)\ btw, the poll question is terribly worded. Too bad there's no editpoll.php (edited by MathOnNapkins on 11-10-04 02:58 PM) |
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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Partial Birth Abortion |
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