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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - General Emulation - DS Emulator |
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Colleen Administrator Level: 136 Posts: 4286/11302 EXP: 29369328 For next: 727587 Since: 03-15-04 From: LaSalle, Quebec, Canada Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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Hold down the mouse button?  (Or maybe have it so that one button is light, one is medium... meh.) |
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Mutation Buzzy Beetle Level: 30 Posts: 120/389 EXP: 154861 For next: 11008 Since: 09-21-04 Since last post: 22 days Last activity: 5 min. |
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Originally posted by Colleen That's probably what they will do...although it might not work too well, depending on how many different levels of pressure the screen can detect. |
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Zem You can be civil without being flowery, dipshits. Level: 49 Posts: 154/1107 EXP: 829398 For next: 54485 Since: 06-13-04 Since last post: 131 days Last activity: 131 days |
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| I doubt a decently designed game would have significant differences at more than three different levels of pressure. Remember analog buttons on the PS2 and Xbox? How easy was it to consistently get the behavior you wanted when those were implemented? If pressure is used for anything, it would be during hold-and-drag. Do we even know that it will be pressure-sensitive? | |||
KP9000 Flurry Level: 27  Posts: 167/261 EXP: 102741 For next: 13418 Since: 03-18-04 From: Wherever you saw me last... Since last post: 22 days Last activity: 2 days |
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| Pressure Sensitivity + Mouse wheel. Most people have a mouse with a wheel in it. | |||
windwaker Ball and Chain Trooper WHY ALL THE MAYONNAISE HATE Level: 61  Posts: 94/1797 EXP: 1860597 For next: 15999 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 4 days Last activity: 6 days |
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Originally posted by dan It IS a kind of warez scene  . |
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MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67  Posts: 581/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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| He never said it wasn't, WW. That was the point. Though only part of it is. I wouldn't dream of calling what we do a warez scene. |
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Grinto Red Goomba Level: 12 Posts: 20/43 EXP: 6890 For next: 1031 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 13 hours Last activity: 12 hours |
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| How many years after the NES came out did it take for an emulator to come out for it? Imagine if the DS took that long, heh. | |||
dan Snap Dragon Level: 43  Posts: 195/782 EXP: 534516 For next: 30530 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 20 hours Last activity: 14 hours |
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| I was referring to the fact that GBA games that are only just out (or even before they are released) were being dumped, and put on the Internet. I would easily compare the downloading of GBA ROMs to the warez scene, but not the downloading of NES ROMs as Nintendo can't really make a profit on NES cartridges. | |||
Dish Spiny Level: 38 Posts: 133/596 EXP: 355646 For next: 14801 Since: 03-15-04 From: Disch Since last post: 18 days Last activity: 18 days |
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Originally posted by dan Bah... I made a huge post addressing this subject not too long ago. I hate when people say "it's okay to pirate NES games beacause blah blah" and then turn around and get mad at people when they download GBA roms. It's all stealing. Anyway... I summed it up in this other post, which I'll copy/paste for you. Note it's mostly relating to FF1 pirating (since it was on an FF1 board), but it applies to anything, really. --- begin paste ---
Well they're not going to prosecute because it's futile. It's like trying to shut down file sharing. They want to do it, but it's just not going to happen. The most they can do is slow it down by repeatedly shutting down the various contributors that keep coming up (and Nintendo and co were avidly closing down retro ROM sites not too long ago). It's bad for them. They don't like it. They want to stop it. But in reality there's nothing they can do. Policing the net isn't possible. Besides... like you pointed out in your post... it's not cost effective. The money they'd spend on lawsuits would just add to the money they're losing.
It's not necessarily about money. It's a copyright. It's about people stealing what they own. Things don't have to have a monetary value attached for them to be protected. Granted, Nintendo might not care as much because it's not as serious as something like DS emulation (or even GBA emulation). But that doesn't make it any more legal.
That's a big load of crap. First of all... Square/Enix is AVIDLY producing rereleased of FF1. So people that turn to pirate the NES ROM are stealing the game for free instead of purchasing the copy that's readily available in stores everywhere. Maybe a handful of people will use ROMs as a way to 'test' a game series.... but people like that are in the minority. 99% of people that have ROMs because it's a way to get games for free. Yeah a lot of them try to claim they do it for other reasons (like nostolgia or other BS), but it always comes back to them just not willing to dish out the money to actually buy the stuff.
Except they're not samples... they're full commercial games. And they're not supposed to be free. If Square wanted to hand out free samples, they'd put demos or something on their site for download.
It's wrong because it's piracy. Retro emulation is part of the same family as next gen emulation. The same people that go out and download NES roms are out making DS emulators and reverse-enginerring the PS2 and putting Linux on X-Box. The whole subculture is people looking to ripoff game companies for whatever reason. If you pirate roms, you're part of that subculture whether you want to admit it or not. You may not be as bad as the people developing the emus or dumping the ROMs, but you're contributing to the 'problem'. After all... if nobody was downloading ROMs, there'd be no ROM sites and there'd be no emus. So anyway, yeah. Emulation is bad. I personally don't really care all that much, and it doesn't bother me to steal like this.... but I know that's what I'm really doing. If you emulate, you're stealing. Live with it... or don't do it. Don't try to rationalize it or say 'oh it's not really bad'... because it is. I know better and you should know better. --- end paste --- So anyway Dan.... emulation IS a warez scene. It always was. It's all about stealing games. If you don't see that you're in denial. |
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Drag Flurry  I don't post anymore! o_O Level: 26  Posts: 222/254 EXP: 98946 For next: 3329 Since: 03-15-04 From: Deogon Vally, Dragon Country Since last post: 316 days Last activity: 44 days |
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| What about if the game isn't available anymore? It's not being manufactured, it's not being distributed in stores, and it's just plain not available. You'll still say it's stealing, but is it any more or less severe than pirating the DS before it's even out? Emulators are not as bad when you think about what ELSE you can do with them. If you dump the game yourself (fat chance), then it's not stealing, because it's yours. And you're not stealing anything when you're making your own game. In respect, Disch, you DID bring up some good points. 99% of emulator owners will own ROMs that are stolen. I only have one question. Will you be arrested if you own roms? The worst that usually happens is that rom sites will get shut down. And even then, more pop right back up. I'm not saying roms are illegal or not illegal, but I AM saying that most likely, Nintendo isn't going to care about the NES roms, because to my knowledge, they don't produce them (the carts) anymore (which kinda sucks... it'd be great to be able to order old-generation carts from their site, because then they'd be mint. They wouldn't mass produce them, but they'd pick up the orders. Dunno who would want to do this however.). Not to mention, emulators can't emulate the NES hardware as close as they could... for example, they can't emulate imperfections, like a crappy connection with the cart, or the color burst thingy, or the lockout chip reset cycling. Then again, those are all crappy things everyone wants to forget. I've been using emulators for HOW long? And then finally, one day, I went back to my old NES, and all at once, every imperfection that I forgot about came RIGHT back. My my my, what a rush THAT was.  |
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windwaker Ball and Chain Trooper WHY ALL THE MAYONNAISE HATE Level: 61 Posts: 100/1797 EXP: 1860597 For next: 15999 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 4 days Last activity: 6 days |
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Originally posted by dan You talk about warez like it's a bad thing |
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Dish Spiny Level: 38 Posts: 134/596 EXP: 355646 For next: 14801 Since: 03-15-04 From: Disch Since last post: 18 days Last activity: 18 days |
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Originally posted by Drag First of all... every game is for sale somewhere if you look hard enough (any NES game, anyway). I even found a copy of Lagrange Point for sale not too long ago. That aside... that doesn't really matter, because the vast majority of people would still download the ROM even if the game was in the hobby shop down the street for $10. But even that doesn't matter... because the game still belongs to someone/something and you're stealing it As for the severity of the crime... if you're talking in legal terms, I don't think pirating a DS game before it's release is any more severe of a crime than pirating a 15 year old NES game (provided the copyright is still in tact). If you're talking about morals... then it's 100% up for the person to decide... and whichever way you want to go is fine by me. My beef comes when people try to dictate their morals as what's right for everyone. Like Dan's original post... "it's people like that who give the emulation scene a bad name". I find that statement to be completely hypocritical, since Dan contributes to the 'pirating circle of emulation'. Personally... I tend to think that people that think it's okay to steal stuff just because it's old are the ones that need to re-evaluate their morals.
Well yeah, there's legitmate uses for emulation, but that's such a small part of the emulation circle. I mean nobody downloads an emu just to write their own game, or play homebrews. Everyone that has used an emu has used it to steal at one point or another.
No you won't get arrested... but that doesn't really mean anything other than it's easy to get away with. You could easily go up to someone on the street, punch them in the eye and run. But just because you won't get arrested doesn't mean it's okay
Well they do. Go visit nintendo's site sometime. They have like a whole page dedicated to how they hate the emulation scene and give a million reasons why. The only game company I can think of that really expressed indifference to emulation was Sega, and look what happened to them with the DC The rest of your post seemed to be you going off on some crazy tangent, so I'll just let it go ;D |
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Colleen Administrator Level: 136 Posts: 4430/11302 EXP: 29369328 For next: 727587 Since: 03-15-04 From: LaSalle, Quebec, Canada Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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Well, Sega should have actually put a bit of copy protection on the DC in the first place. By the time they did...  |
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Kitten Yiffer Purple wand Furry moderator Vivent l'exp����¯�¿�½������©rience de signalisation d'amusement, ou bien ! Level: 135 Posts: 5256/11162 EXP: 28824106 For next: 510899 Since: 03-15-04 From: Sweden Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 4 min. |
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| I think that most people don't care if emulation is illegal/inmoral or what. They still will do it. And well, the biggest reason I emulate is for hacking reasons. (hell, I prefer buying and playing on the real thing). So I can honestly say that most games I have in ROM form do I also own in "real" cartdrigdes. |
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MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67 Posts: 594/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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| Part of me wants to say that having roms is an archival activity. Although I am not interested in downloading every rom known to man, there are some games that will inevitably fall by the wayside - games I cherish. Companies go out of business, it happens. I'd like to know that I have that digital file somewhere in case that happens. Game cartridges/discs deteriorate with use. Nintendo seems to like to argue that they resurrect their characters, and that people have no need to feel that old games are in danger or "retro". I personally think that over time that attitude will change. It will be impossible for a company to resurrect all its old games because there will be so many of them. Yes it's illegal, but I usually do so with good intentions. Btw my earlier post was referring to this scene, i.e. Acmlm boards, not being a warez scene. |
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dan Snap Dragon Level: 43 Posts: 196/782 EXP: 534516 For next: 30530 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 20 hours Last activity: 14 hours |
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| What I so clumsily tried to point out was that pirating stuff that is still being produced today (GBA ROMs) is more wrong to me, than to pirate stuff that has no commercial value (NES ROMs). I admit that it is still pirating, but pirating a 20 year old video game that I cannot find anywhere at all (I live in the UK where a lot of games didn't make it out at all) doesn't seem as morally wrong to me as pirating a new game. If that means I have fucked up morals, then meh. |
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Scatterheart Panser Level: 29 Posts: 29/342 EXP: 143409 For next: 4476 Since: 06-06-04 From: Sydney, Australia Since last post: 17 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| True, I don't see what the big fuss is with these older ROMs. Nintendo won't make any money off them if you can find the cartridges, because the only way you can buy them now is 2nd hand. If they were still producing them, then maybe it'd be a problem. I used to own a GBA. It got damaged, and then stolen. I spent $400 for nothing. It's funny how quickly older games lose their value. Buy something for $200, then a few years later, see it selling for half of that price. It's all their way of "boosting" sales. I bet they'd sell alot more if they'd give us the cheaper price first. Just think about how much money you've spent on video games in your life... I know I've probably hit around the $10,000 mark. Now, the reason I download ROMs is to save money. And I'm pretty sure that despite all the piracy, they're still walking away with big-time money (what with how much they charge developers.) |
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 1822/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by Drag If people actually dumped the lockout chip's ROM from the carts and system, they could emulate it. Even without they could emulate the reset cycling, it'd just have to be user-initiated. If you really wanted to, you could probably write an emulator that emulates the hardware exactly (Rather than just do what the CPU would do, it'd actually emulate a ROM chip and CPU; instead of just read a byte from ROM, actually give a signal to the emulated ROM chip that tells it to send these bits back, and corrupt/don't read them if the "connection" is bad), but that would be quite difficult to program and would run very slowly for something that nobody would ever use. |
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LocalH Red Goomba Level: 12  Posts: 22/46 EXP: 7612 For next: 309 Since: 03-17-04 Since last post: 25 days Last activity: 4 days |
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| It is ALWAYS possible to write a 100% accurate emulator. It just takes a lot of effort and precise reverse-engineering to be able to do so. Look at the amount of effort put into the top C64 emus, and they're still only 99.9% cycle-accurate. And it's sad to see there are still people who think "emulation = illegal". Emulation, in and of itself, is NEVER illegal. It's the redistribution of copyrighted content (in this case, BIOS/ROMs/ISOs) that's illegal. And regardless of whether or not a system has any ROMs that are legal to distribute, emulation of that system is STILL legal (in theory, anyway). |
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Dark Sorceress Rope Level: 18  Posts: 87/107 EXP: 27052 For next: 2845 Since: 03-15-04 From: California, USA Since last post: 134 days Last activity: 127 days |
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| On the comment with the pressure sensitive issue. The WACOM Tablet's pens are pressure sensitive. Photoshop takes advantage of this, and so I believe that if they were to design the touch screen with pressure sensitivity, they would just have to look at Photoshop's code (there ARE decompilers). It's convienient for me, since I have a WACOM Tablet. Also considering how it works, it might be better to use that anyways. |
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