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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Bush or Kerry |
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Who do you want to win the up coming Election?| George W Bush |
26.7%, 28 votes | John Kerry |
53.3%, 56 votes | Other |
20.0%, 21 votes | Multi-voting is disabled.
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Lunar Depths Paragoomba Level: 14  Posts: 2/67 EXP: 11330 For next: 1741 Since: 09-01-04 From: New Jersey Since last post: 105 days Last activity: 105 days |
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| Hmm...This thread is extremely interesting I have to say. Of all the comments made, sadly enough, only a few people actually back up their opinions intelligently. For all of you who simply say, "I'm voting Kerry because I hate Bush!".....well.....I'm sorry but that idiotic type of statement speaks for itself. Personally, I don't want to hear any whining and crying about how much you hate him if you have absolutely no fact or substance to your argument. The same goes for "I'm voting Bush because I hate Kerry." Please, we have brains and it's high time America started to use them. As for oil....Aha it's amusing how many people are still convinced that we went to Iraq for oil. Did any of you know that the majority of our oil actually does not come from OPEC? I get not. Here's a nifty little thing to look at, but since many won't delve into it, I'll give the basic facts for you. http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/rankings/crudebycountry.htm Basically, what this says is that our top five oil sources are in the following order: 1) Saudi Arabia 2)Mexico 3) Canada 4)Venezuela 5) Nigeria, etc etc etc. To skip over all the rest, here are the plain facts. In thousands of barrels a day, we receive 5,058 from non OPEC sources. How much comes from the Persian Gulf? 2,213. I think that speaks for itself. On another side of this issue though...if we are in Iraq, and they do happen to be an oil producing company, why not embark on trade agreements with them? I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Okay let's see, where else to go. I do want to make one comment about Apple's post on protesting. Thank God someone agrees with me, that's what I have to say. I am from Colorado Springs, and I lived on the Air Force Academy. When our troops from Ft. Carson came home from Iraq, imagine what was waiting for them at the gates when they entered? That's right, protestors. Not only are our soldiers parted from their family for months at a time, placed in an area of the world that no one would willingly choose to go to, and risking their lives...but upon their home coming, American citizens greet them with signs screaming "Murderer" etc etc. I don't know about you, but I find that absolutely pathetic. Not only does it have no bearing over our stay in Iraq, it's absolutely disrespectful to our troops. If you want to protest, do it in a timely place and manner, not at the gates of a base when our tired soldiers are finally coming home. Anyway, this is getting a lot longer than I intended, so I'll just state my piece and move along. I will most assuredly be voting for Bush this fall. He may not be the most eloquent speaker, but he's the most honest president we've had in a while, at least in my opinion. I know there are all kinds of scandals going around, but with today's media, I don't trust anyone. From what I know, Bush has attempted to, or succeeded in, every goal he has stated. Kerry, on the other hand, changes his mind on issues quicker than a dog on steak. Personally, I want a president who will stand by his beliefs no matter what critisism he receives, and will make a firm stance. I do not want someone in that office that changes their mind with the wind, looking to please whoever he deems worthy at the time. Kerry is a puppet, a flip-flop. Who's pulling the strings? Hopefully we won't have to find out. Bush/Cheney '04 |
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Kaiser Wilhelm Red Goomba Level: 11  Posts: 3/37 EXP: 4653 For next: 1332 Since: 09-01-04 From: Sheffield/Liverpool, UK Since last post: 423 days Last activity: 339 days |
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| And how about the number of people voting for Bush because they hate Kerry? Or they think he's "wishy-washy," apparantly, for engaging in constructive debate. Or bothering to go out and learn about something, and consequently changing your mind is weak now? Obviously he's not omnipotent like Bush as some previous posts have highlighted, but I'm sure you can't begrudge him that. Those of you diligent enough may notice that I'm not American, so this is going to skip over all that domestic policy stuff, only that which affects the rest of us. It's funny how you can think Bush is doing a good job. How many more people are dieing per day now than before? That's Iraqi's and our own. It was as much for strategy as it was for oil or Halliburton. Not to mention Bush Jr. was finishing the job daddy started. Saddam was a vicious, brutal dictator, that's for sure. But, the rule of law should rise above even those concerns. Your country claimed to be doing this to uphold international law when you don't even recognise the authority of the World Court after they ruled against you. You (and we, though we're doing our best to change that) frequently ignore or veto UN resolutions, and then expect others who aren't in such a powerful position to abide by them? I agree with you about the protesting mind, it's not the troops fault they were sent there. But we shouldn't give them more respect than they deserve. They're still killers, they're just our killers. Of course, even if Kerry did get in, that will make little difference to the Palestinians. Clinton's administration poured more money into Israel than any other. That money generally goes into buying weapons etc. to kill people. Or for 'defense' as you guys like to call it. That excluded, and in the absence of a miracle, Kerry is likely to be the best president for the rest of us. Finally, if you want a resolute president like that, why don't you take Biafra's advice and go on a holiday in Cambodia? They're supposed to be your president, and you live in a democracy. If enough people (more than half ideally) kick up a fuss about something, isn't it their job to see it changes? And for anyone British, that applies to us too. |
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Lunar Depths Paragoomba Level: 14 Posts: 4/67 EXP: 11330 For next: 1741 Since: 09-01-04 From: New Jersey Since last post: 105 days Last activity: 105 days |
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| I'm sorry, perhaps I'm mistaken, but I do believe I addressed that very issue of people voting for Bush because they hate Kerry, did I not? My views on that go both ways. If I had seen evidence of Kerry going out and receiving intelligent information, and thusly changing his mind, I would concede your point, Kaiser. From what I've gathered, though, he simply sways with the tide, voting for something one time and then against it the next, riding on the wave of whatever will get him the most votes. If you have an example to prove otherwise, I'd be more than happy to look at it and reconsider my opinion. And on the issue of dying (with a y, just for future reference), yes it's a tragic thing, and ~maybe~ the rate of death is up, but death is a fact of life. Right now the deaths are for a cause, they are for a purpose. What purpose did the poor souls dumped into mass graves serve? None but for the pleasure of killing. I find it interesting that people assume that Iraq is worse off than it was before when they are slowly being given rights they never had the opportunity to experience. How about free press? Freedom to speak? Sure, there are a minority of individuals who are fighting back out of fear and anger, but what about the majority? Don't let the mass media taint the larger picture. How could days of toture and imprisonment for no reason possibly be better than what's going on now? Please give any examples that you might have. On the matter of the U.N. ....Oh man, that's a fun one. This is my own opinion, granted, and none of you have to agree with it, but here it is. The U.N. is a waste of time and money, and is basically worthless. It is nothing but a bunch of old men with no idea how to help the world who sit around and argue, or lose billions of dollars from the "Oil for Food" program, or allow things like the Rwanda genocides to occur. When the U.N. can prove their worth to me, maybe I'll reconsider. As for right now, I just view it as a corrupt organization with too much regard from the world. Respecting troups....this issue is a difficult one, I'll admit, especially when troops may be doing things the public does not approve of. For example, Vietnam. Something I think many people look over is that the military does not choose where they go or what they do. To serve in the military is a job and a lifestyle, and soldiers are required to do their duty with no questions asked. I think our soldiers should be respected no matter what, simply because they are willing to put their lives on the line at any time, for any reason. Does that not deserve our upmost respect? I'd like to think so. |
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Raistlin the Red Robed Paragoomba Level: 15  Posts: 30/76 EXP: 14064 For next: 2320 Since: 08-08-04 From: Fort Hood, Texas Since last post: 362 days Last activity: 318 days |
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| Lunar Depths- They also seem to forget that Iraq had one channel, one that Saddam dictated. Now, as you said, they are getting freedom of press. And a little known fact, that Iraq finally got to go to the Olympics for Soccer (futbol) this year. First time since 1984 I think. Saddam said he felt that Soccer could be an uprising against him. Kraiser- We are killers, eh? Do you think we, hell, ANYBODY, wants to get sent thousands of miles from their homes just to kill people? If they do, then THEY are killers. I don't sit at home and practice how to kill, maim, and torture people. I don't sit in my bed and say "Man, I wish I could have shot his face off. I would have loved that". That is a flippin' killer. And about that how many more are dying now bit, how many more do you think were mercilessly killed just for the sake of it? Because they didn't agree with their president. I'd guarantee your country would have been doing the same thing if you had been blantly attacked by a Terrorist organization. Do you think we are fighting soldiers right now? No, that war is long done. We are fighting Terrorist guerilla's who cut innocent civilians heads off. That is the defination of a killer. Not someone who defends freedom. |
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Ramadan Roy Like Like ...Or you'll be wearing your ass for a hat. Renowned Otaku Level: 44 Posts: 381/816 EXP: 569705 For next: 41580 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 13 hours Last activity: 7 hours |
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| The problem with the U.S. government is that it does not know how to handle terrorism and the like. They think that the troubles will end if they kill the terrorists. History, my friends, has an awful way of repeating itself. I cannot believe that people have not looked at this with a logical standpoint. That is, wouldn't it be better to find out WHY there is so much civil unrest and do something about it? The only way Bush can win using his tactics, is to completely level out these countries so there is no resistance. Every time a bomb is dropped upon a city, people die; innocent civilians along with criminals. Then what happens? Well, it is likely that the innocent civilians(that are still alive) will hate us because of the attack. Then, they could, indeed, become terrorists. That's how it works, and it's not too hard to figure out. The US did not do enough to help the Iraqi government. I'm sorry, but it's the truth; if you plan to free a nation and dethrone the dictator, it would be smart to have a plan on what to do afterwards. Tell me this, why would the Iraqis be totally willing to accept help from the US when the US just attacked them? Maybe because they fear that the US wants the country's resources? And doesn't care about it's people? I'm not saying that's true, but it's likely that that's what Iraqis are afraid of. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99  Posts: 1205/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Lunar, this board (for the most part) is Moore left-wing. I myself think that Bush is a pud. The war wasn't for oil, per se. The strategic oil reserves that are gained from the occupation are a lovely after mint. Oh, and it stops a pipeline from Saudi Arabia to China, just as taking Afghanistan stops a Russian/those many Stans pipleline to China. The war was not for freedom. It was for weapons of mass destruction that don't exist. Anyone who believes that the war was for the freedom of the Iraqi people needs to give their head a shake. WW2 wasn't fought for the enslaved Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, etc. It was for stopping German expansionism. The dislike of racism came after the fact. And anyone trying to defend the American stance that their killing of Iraqis is justified by the fact it is a war for the Iraqis freedom is a fool. Plain and simple. Your stance on the UN is flawed, at best. The UN managed to stop Rwanda before the genocide continued to grow. And when I checked it was Romeo D'Aillare of Canada that led the forces of the UN to stop the genocide, not America. America, I believe didn't care about that conflict. Just like the Congo. Which the UN has managed to slow steadily. |
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Deleted User Banned Level: 8 Posts: 1/12 EXP: 1736 For next: 451 Since: 01-23-01 Since last post: 13089 days Last activity: 21 days |
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Ithink i wold vote for bush because i dont like gay pepole and i think anyone who is gay shold rot in hell |
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Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101  Posts: 1931/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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| Hollllly fuck, I don't want you at this board. And I think all intolerant bigots should rot in hell. (edited by Legion on 09-01-04 02:19 PM) |
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Prier Archangel Administrative Priestess. NUCLEAR SUB WEEEOOOO Level: 119  Posts: 2813/8392 EXP: 18790939 For next: 138352 Since: 03-15-04 From: Nerima Dist. - Tokyo, Japan Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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Originally posted by nickgoutermout Quoth the 10-year-old dumbshit. |
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Lilmario Hoarder crappy custom title! Level: 31  Posts: 115/367 EXP: 171741 For next: 13622 Since: 03-15-04 From: The land of Leprachauns <3 Since last post: 9 hours Last activity: 8 hours |
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| Some people know that I post rarely, but his comment pissed me off. What's wrong with gay people? They've never done nothing to you! Leave them alone Homophobe |
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Kaiser Wilhelm Red Goomba Level: 11 Posts: 4/37 EXP: 4653 For next: 1332 Since: 09-01-04 From: Sheffield/Liverpool, UK Since last post: 423 days Last activity: 339 days |
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| On the troops issue (double 'o' for future reference, although they do act like clowns), I don't think anybody who kills for a living deserves respect. As for the UN, you're confusing things, or completely ignoring it. What about the world court? That's not the same thing as they UN. Are they useless? 'Too much regard for the world' and not enough bias towards America? What? And what about the people killed in Nicaragua? The bombings there, mass graves. That was all American funded, and it was why the World Court ruled against you. By your standards we should be holding Reagan responsible? But I doubt you'd apply that to yourself. The UN is _not_ a bunch of old men, they do try, they spoke out against you didn't they. They just don't think that violence is usually the best course, and would rather try the route of diplomacy. It takes a bit longer, but as we've seen in Afghanistan and Iraq, violence breeds violence. Death is a fact of life? Why bother 'liberating' people then? They'll die anyway, right? (disclaimer: sarcasm) And of course, the days of torture and imprisonment facing Iraqi's and people from Afghanistan now is ok, because there's some kind of greater good. Yes. Of course. How silly of me. As for Kerry, how about a common sense argument. Would you change your opinion with the wind? I admire his ability to turn around his mistakes, not to keep blindly charging on with the wrong idea because he's already started. It wouldn't make sense for him to blindly change, especially if he's got a career in politics in mind. Edit: Tried to add this as a new post, didn't seem to work, adding it to this. In reply to post asking what we'd do if we were attacked. We have been attacked, or have you completely forgotten about the IRA? Sure, we tried your approach first, send in the army, send in the navy, just don't let them think they've got one up on us. But you know, it didn't work. Funnily, now we've started engaging them in diplomacy, integrating them into the political process, the violence has almost ceased. Interesting, possibly, is the fact it was one of our right wing politicians that really started the process. There've not been any bombings that I know of for a long time. We have been through it, and it's fairly obvious that violence isn't the solution to terrorism. Look at the Palestinians, the Iraqi's, Chechnya. Find an example where violence has worked against a real, not an imagined (ie cuba, vietnam, nicaragua), enemy. (edited by Kaiser Wilhelm on 09-01-04 03:24 PM) |
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Grey the Stampede Don't mess with powers you don't understand. And yes. That means donuts. Level: 82  Posts: 833/3770 EXP: 5192909 For next: 16318 Since: 06-17-04 From: Kingston, RI, USA, Earth Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| You know, (unless it was in a post that I missed earlier) even Ziff managed to skim over the fact that in WWII and the Iraqi War, which are being quite well compared around here, America didn't bother getting involved in all of the troubles until they were attacked. Bill Clinton went through varied programs and made several plans to prevent terrorist attacks during his presidency, which were supposed to be carried out when Bush took office. Didn't happen. The two-party animosity ended up causing most of Clinton's plans to be scrapped early on in Bush's administration, meaning our defense against attacks (as can be noted by the recent questioning of Bush's judgement by the government) was significantly lessened. Once we were attacked, the people cried "mobilize!" in a frenzy, and didn't come to their senses and realize any war at all is wrong until after the shooting started. And here we are now. Similarly, the U.S. government turned its back on the Allies for the early part of the conflicts leading up to WWII. Though their "cash and carry" policy was obviously in favor of the Allies, they never actually took a side until they were attacked by expansionist Japan. It was then that the government realized that Germany and Japan would eventually have a huge hand in controlling the world if something was not done. Since Germany had already taken so much space, it was decided that although Hirohito was the attacker that Americans wanted revenge for, Hitler would be attacked and then Hirohito. Lunar, I can see where your argument stands, but unfortunately you seem to be working more off of emotion than logic, and the two often clash with each other. I was having a discussion earlier today, in fact, about the views of good and evil in the world. Take Josef Stalin for example: His actions caused Russia to become economically stable all the way up to the collapse of the U.S.S.R. However, in order to better the lives of the lowest classes, he had to kill millions of people in the middle class. But if he had not killed the millions of people in the middle classes (who were attacking him because they did not want to be reduced to the level of the lowest classes), then the lowest classes would have ended up suffering. Saying that there is a clear cut rule of good and evil is like feeding the hungry by giving them all a decent meal. On paper it sounds like a good idea, but you can't go any further than that. |
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DEMONSOWRD you win the internet. Level: 9  Posts: 22/26 EXP: 2740 For next: 422 Since: 09-01-04 Since last post: 426 days Last activity: 339 days |
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| prsonly i want bush agian. | |||
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Lunar Depths Paragoomba Level: 14 Posts: 5/67 EXP: 11330 For next: 1741 Since: 09-01-04 From: New Jersey Since last post: 105 days Last activity: 105 days |
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| Ziffski, I'm not entirely sure what exactly that first comment is supposed to mean, but I'm hoping you're not trying to silence me simply because I have a different view point on things. I really don't care what the "majority" of the people on this board are, we all have the right to express our views in a polite, respectful manner. Even though Kaiser and I may have rather large disagreements, the point of a civilized world is to be able to discuss them and broaden our own, and each others' minds. Speaking of which, thank you for the correction Kaiser, I will remember the double "o". Long day...you know how it goes. I can understand your views on killing for a living, because I don't think anyone really enjoys that. The sad thing is our world requires that because we've made it unstable with years and years of warfare. It's become a necessity, so I suppose that's all I meant by what I said. And I apologize if I misunderstood your statement of the world court. With the UN in such close context, I assumed you were speaking of them jointly, if that makes any sense. I think you took my comment on death far too cynically. The only thing I meant is that sometimes sacrifices must be made. There is not one civilization in this world that I'm aware of that achieved their place without some sort of violence. And while we may be trading one sort of violence in for another, I do believe there is such a thing as the lesser of two evils. Or the lesser of two weevils...whichever you prefer. And another thing Ziffski, about the Rwanda genocides, I know that America didn't step in either, that's another major flaw I see in our country and one large thing about Clinton I detested. I meant in no way that somehow America managed to be the "hero" or something like that. On the UN, I can concede the point of the idea being a good one. Of course diplomacy is the right answer, the only problem is it's not working correctly. Maybe with a little bit of reconstruction, I don't know, something I'm sure someone will think up someday, things will improve. As for now, I find it to be ineffective. I think we shall have to agree to disagree on Kerry for the time being. I know people change their minds, heck I do it all the time. I am more than willing to listen to another side as long as there are cold hard facts to back it up, and if I'm proven wrong, I'll admit it. I just don't see Kerry doing that, it seems to be more of a popularity contest. While politics may require that for success, I'd rather not worry about my president changing ideals in the middle of the term. I vote for who I want for a reason, not for them to turn into a different person once elected. And just on a side note...I really hope no one is taking these comments offensively. If I disagree with your views and I use the term "you", I do not mean to attack you as an individual. It's just the easiest way to express things by saying "you think" etc etc. I have no qualm with anyone on this board, or their views, and I would hope the respect is mutual. I just wanted to remind everyone...this is all in the spirit of good fun and intellectual exploration. |
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Grey the Stampede Don't mess with powers you don't understand. And yes. That means donuts. Level: 82 Posts: 836/3770 EXP: 5192909 For next: 16318 Since: 06-17-04 From: Kingston, RI, USA, Earth Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| ......you're gonna go far here. In any case, I do believe you are right. From here it's obviously nothing more than a conflict of beliefs: It seems as though you believe in a clear cut definition of good and evil; I believe in balance, rather than good and evil. Unfortunately, we probably won't agree on our preferred candidate. However, you may take as much comfort as you like in the fact that I am only a teenager, and still unable to legally vote. Thus regardless of my opinion as to which candidate is the best, I will be unable to express it.  And as for politics being a popularity contest, of course it is! Even this poll is just a popularity contest, no matter how many excellent points Ziff, Kaiser, Trunxy, you, and Raistlin pose, it's going to come down to which candidate the voters like better. It's a corrupt system, unfortunately, but presently it appears to work. |
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Valcion YOU WA SHOCK Level: 50  Posts: 515/1139 EXP: 939607 For next: 7710 Since: 03-15-04 From: internets. Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| why vote bush he's a no0b Quoth the Nightmare. BEST POLITICAL ADVICE EVAR! (edited by Valcion on 09-01-04 04:54 PM) |
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Kaiser Wilhelm Red Goomba Level: 11 Posts: 5/37 EXP: 4653 For next: 1332 Since: 09-01-04 From: Sheffield/Liverpool, UK Since last post: 423 days Last activity: 339 days |
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Of course I'm not taking it personally, I live on this (you's a lot more convenient anyway)  And yeah, I do have a tendency to be overly cynical. Think it comes with being English.Unfortunately that means I can't vote in your elections (they're a lot more interesting, you know), but we're going to be doing everything we can to kick Bliar out here next year. For anyone intrigued, not sure if this has been covered on your news, the date of our elections is decided by our government, but it must be within five years. So they can try and pick a time that looks most favourable. Generally a bad idea, eh? I'd still say the view that violence is required just keeps it going, maybe it's not so neccessary after all, people just haven't realised it yet. So I'd hope anyway... And yeah, it is corrupt, not sure to what extent we can even call these sacred cows of ours democracy except by label. We can't intervene without being investigated, our MPs/Representatives don't even listen to the majority. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy |
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witeasprinwow Lakitu Level: 37 Posts: 361/555 EXP: 319587 For next: 18666 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 55 days Last activity: 55 days |
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Originally posted by nickgoutermout suk my ballz lol |
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Raistlin the Red Robed Paragoomba Level: 15 Posts: 32/76 EXP: 14064 For next: 2320 Since: 08-08-04 From: Fort Hood, Texas Since last post: 362 days Last activity: 318 days |
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| On the troops issue (double 'o' for future reference, although they do act like clowns), I don't think anybody who kills for a living deserves respect. I wake up every morning at 5:30, stand in front of a formation. After saluting the flag, we do some push ups, some sit ups, and we run a few miles. Then we get in the shower, get ready for work. I then go to the office, do some paperwork, turn in some reports. That's my job. My NCOs and Officers don't have a Kill X amount of people list in my inbox everyday. That's my job. I'm a stone cold killer. Killing trees with the amount of printing I have to do.  |
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drjayphd Beamos What's that spell? pimp! Level: 56  Posts: 596/1477 EXP: 1387410 For next: 10766 Since: 03-15-04 From: CT Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| On Osama: Personally, I think he's already dead. When will we find out? Late October. On Lunar Depths: So you'd prefer someone who plods along the same path even when proven wrong to someone who can change their mind when their strategy doesn't work? I can also assure you that those protesters are not the majority of any group. It's like holding up PETA members as examples of how vegans are teh evil. And the oil's probably just a cover for Bush wanting a base of operations to clean out the Middle East. And I'm not referring to terrorism, either. Raistlin: "Do you think we, hell, ANYBODY, wants to get sent thousands of miles from their homes just to kill people?" Mmhmm. The mouthbreathers who enlisted post-9.11 for the sole purpose of whacking towelheads. Thankfully, no one takes THEM seriously or thinks they make up the majority of the armed forces. But as for soccer, that's one thing I won't hold against those responsible for the war. Uday and Qusay would have been everything Bush had said Saddam is (and was, but hasn't been for ten years). Knew about the atrocities they committed against the Iraqi Olympians for quite a while. Trunxy seems to get what no one else really does on terrorism. How do you get a beautiful, weed-free yard? Sure, you can pull the weeds. But by feeding your lawn, strengthening it and the grass, you won't get as many weeds. Don't kill the problem and expect it to be gone. Treat the symptoms and the disease will die out. |
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