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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - General Chat - Gay Marriage (again) |
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Vystrix Nexoth Level: 30 Posts: 39/348 EXP: 158678 For next: 7191 Since: 03-15-04 From: somewhere between anima and animus Since last post: 3 days Last activity: 2 days |
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| this topic is about the fact that some places are starting to permit same-sex marriages, which is a legal topic, not a religious one. these are not church-sanctioned marriages being performed. these are law-sanctioned marriages. the church does not like, recognize, or sanction same-sex marriages. we know this, we are not trying to debate this issue, nor are we trying to get them to change their view.
two different things. marriage was created as a religious institution, but today it's two separate things: a religious institution, and a legal one. the church can marry two people but not have the law recognize it, and the law can marry two people but not have the church recognize it. same-sex marriages are the latter. the church does not recognize them, and they don't need to recognize them, and we're not trying to get them to recognize them. our concern right now is how the law views it. and before you bring it up, I've said this twice in this thread (and again on IRC) and I'll say it again: yes, the law says marriage = man and woman (not everywhere, though, such as canada), but, the point of this thread is that that law is changing, as law-sanctioned same-sex marriages are being carried out in some places in the united states, such as in Multnomah and Benton counties in the state of Oregon. and, no, we don't view you as homophobic. but we're starting to view you as someone who throws bibles at a non-religious issue, which is the idea of law-sanctioned (but not church-sanctioned) same-sex marriage. (edited by Vystrix Nexoth on 03-18-04 12:29 AM) |
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Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101  Posts: 130/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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| Early in the thread, I said this: "Besides lessening the meaning of marriage in the first place? That is, the holy union between a man and a woman." Then, you replied with: "now you're going by the religious idea of marriage. I'm going by the legal definition." Just now, you said: "and before you bring it up, I've said this twice in this thread (and again on IRC) and I'll say it again: yes, the law says marriage = man and woman" So....does this mean you've made up your mind about the legal definition of marriage yet? Or is it going to change again? "we don't view you as homophobic" Good, because I'm not. "but we're starting to view you as someone who throws bibles at a non-religious issue, which is the idea of law-sanctioned (but not church-sanctioned) same-sex marriage. Well, I don't see why you're speaking on behalf of everyone but I already said various times that I was FOR civil unions. It would protect the meaning of marriage for us "holier-than-thou bible-thumping holy rollers" and at the same time give homosexuals their union which would allow them the same rights and recognition by the law. |
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Vystrix Nexoth Level: 30 Posts: 40/348 EXP: 158678 For next: 7191 Since: 03-15-04 From: somewhere between anima and animus Since last post: 3 days Last activity: 2 days |
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Originally posted by Legion well, in that case, touch |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99  Posts: 307/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Take away human rights, take away everyone's rights. | |||
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Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101 Posts: 131/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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Originally posted by EvillerLegion Then would you agree that I have the right to not have my religiously established marriage concept tampered with? |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 310/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by LegionOriginally posted by EvillerLegion Yup, but that is the issue at hand, when do we stop rights, and when do we push for them? This is the fundamental problem. No one has a problem with homosexuality (at least I don't think you do lesser evil us)...The problem with this set up is that it underminds thousands of years of religious history...And thousands of years of world history. Actual fact, Alexander the Great planned on having gay marriages in Macedonia...That got scrapped when he died in Babylon. I'm going to put my foot on my stance and then nail my foot to the floor which I'm stepping on which has my stance on it. Abolish marriage all together as a state document. Have civil-unions which can be made into 'marriages' by churches. That way, churches can have it there way, and gays can technically be married. YAY! |
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kiwibonga Double metal axe Level: 27  Posts: 7/266 EXP: 106040 For next: 10119 Since: 03-15-04 From: Montreal, QC, Canada Since last post: 126 days Last activity: 3 days |
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| "Then would you agree that I have the right to not have my religiously established marriage concept tampered with?" I don't understand why it would bother you that gay couples share the right to marry when non-religious people can also get married. More Church vs. State arguments please. |
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Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101 Posts: 132/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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| This is my "non-religious" aspect of it: Read this short article. What I find funny discussing this with people who support gay marriage is that they seem to think it won't open the door to incestful marriage, etc. And when I ask why they say "Because incest is considered taboo by society. You have to draw the line somewhere." I say we did. At man and women only. Gay marriage is considered taboo by the majority of the U.S. population. But gays are breaking "the line". So how are you going to say no when the person who wants a "taboo" marriage decides its time to redefine marriage again? What people have got to come to understand is that many of these people and their "groups" have no concept of reality, don't care about reality, don't care about the consequences of their actions, don't care what they will cost the others around them. The only way to deal with it is to oppose their movements, political agendas, etc. You can't argue reason with someone who doens't care about the reality of their actions, you can't argue morality with a person who is focused on immediate self gratification regardless of the consequences. Next thing you know they'll all want rights to adopt. If you know anything about psychology and/or developmental psychology then you know the effects of not having two gender parents for role models can have. Kiwi, non-religious men and women who get married aren't breaking any rules when it comes to marriage.  (edited by Legion on 03-18-04 01:16 AM) |
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Vystrix Nexoth Level: 30 Posts: 45/348 EXP: 158678 For next: 7191 Since: 03-15-04 From: somewhere between anima and animus Since last post: 3 days Last activity: 2 days |
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| take existing marriage/civil union laws. remove the requirement that the two participants' genders must not be the same. voila: gay marriage/civil union is allowed, without allowing the same for brother-sister or parent-child or person-self or person-goat relationships. as for those points about not being able to argue morality to someone concerned only with self-gratification, etc., you're right, but I'd like to point out that there are some straight, christian people who, while not particilarly keen on the concept of homosexuality itself, are fine with the concept of gay marriage. you need not look further than this very thread to find evidence thereof. in other words, some people who would gain nothing from it still support it. so your philosophicating about self-gratification is a moot point. (edited by Vystrix Nexoth on 03-18-04 01:40 AM) (edited by Vystrix Nexoth on 03-18-04 01:44 AM) |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 319/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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In Russia, bestiality is legal  |
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Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101 Posts: 136/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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Originally posted by Vystrix Nexoth Yeah but what's to stop those people in the future? If they know that it can be changed, then surely it will come up again in the future. This time around though, they'll know they stand a chance. |
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Vystrix Nexoth Level: 30 Posts: 46/348 EXP: 158678 For next: 7191 Since: 03-15-04 From: somewhere between anima and animus Since last post: 3 days Last activity: 2 days |
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| then the issue will be dealt with when it comes up. | |||
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Valcion YOU WA SHOCK Level: 50  Posts: 47/1139 EXP: 939607 For next: 7710 Since: 03-15-04 From: internets. Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by EvillerLegion IN MOTHER RUSSIA, HORSEY FUCK YOU! (admit it, you knew it was coming) and i'm all for the whole gay marriage thing, they aren't harming anyone. and if you're going for the argument that it doesn't produce anything. It's good. we need the population control. (edited by Valcion on 03-18-04 04:15 AM) (edited by Valcion on 03-18-04 04:15 AM) |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35  Posts: 10/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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Originally posted by Legion No, that's called a straw man. And a slippery slope for that matter. And willfully bloody stupid. Incest brings in genetic issues and protection issues - and isn't universally illegal anyway, nor probably should be even if it is squicky. Pedophilia brings in issues of age of consent and protecting youngins. Bestiality involves nonhumans and is a whole other legal ballgame. The ramifications of multiple partnership contracts are a legal nightmare and too difficult and exploitable. Same-sex partnerships, between a pair of consenting adult human beings, however, are a matter of equality, and nowhere near the same league as these other things. And besides, it's not like EVERY denomination, church, clergyman and individual Christian opposes gay marriage. You don't speak for all of your co-religionists. There's plenty of thinking Christians whose views are very different from yours. Christianity and the Bible is not incompatable with man-on-man butt sex and gay marriage. i mean, Christ, have you read some of the insanity in the book of Leviticus? Slaves and stonings and burnt offerings!? (edited by Arwon on 03-18-04 04:37 AM) |
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Kasumi-Astra Administrator Level: 62  Posts: 94/1867 EXP: 1971846 For next: 12840 Since: 03-15-04 From: Reading, UK Uni: Sheffield, UK Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 12 hours |
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| Eviller Legion: I feel like you're attacking us because you're making a vendetta against us. You're all for removing the rights away from me and my girlfriend, and you're trying extremely hard to argue this instead of discussing all the arguements. True, I did so in return, but give me a chance... What option did I have when I was faced with such comments that a union between me and my girlfriend was "less holy"? |
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Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101 Posts: 166/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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| Kasumi, EvillerLegion is Ziff. I don't have a vendetta against anyone. I'm just trying to protect what's sacred to me that which being the meaning of marriage. (From my standpoint.) And how can I be for removing a right that doesn't exist yet? (In it's fullest form.) I didn't mean any disrepect but it WOULD be less holy if you two were to be married. But why does that bother you if you're not religious? |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35 Posts: 11/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| I can't answer for her as to why it bothers her, but I'll hazard a guess: It migt bother her because (this is why it bothers me at least) you and others are talking about "holiness" and "sin" and other such things, focussing only on high-blown, irrelevant religious rhetoric which obscures the real nuts and bolts issues at stake here. i.e. the list I posted earlier, which was totally ignored... possibly because it's fucking hard to argue that some pairs of adult human beings in love should not have the same rights and protections and privileges as other adult pairs: -Taxation -Divorce protections -Automatic inheritance rights -Visitation of partner in hospital or prison -Visitation of partner's children in hospital or prison -Immunity from testifying against spouse -Domestic violence protection -Immigration -Joint custody -Joint adoption and foster care of existing children of the parties -Joint parenting -Joint insurance -Medical decisions on behalf of partner -Medical insurance family coverage -Sick leave to care for partner -Bereavement leave -Wrongful death benefits -Burial determination -Assumption of spouse's pension -Access to partner's superannuation And probably some other stuff I'm forgetting. Extending marriage to homosexuals would be the easiest, most thorough, and most effective way to ensure equality and justice in these areas. Civil Unions could work but would have to be coordinated at all levels of government, rather than just being state-based or federal-based. No-one's trying to destroy your precious "sanctity of marriage" here, or undermine your faith. For many people, straight and gay, the religious aspects of marriage aren't even an issue. Times change. We eat meat on Fridays. Your "holy union" interpretation is not the only one. It's about LOVE, and about LAW, not GOD. It's about protecting that love the same way, whether it's between a man and a woman, a woman and a woman, or a man and a man. Or any other iterations, which I'm missing here. (edited by Arwon on 03-18-04 05:58 AM) |
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Kasumi-Astra Administrator Level: 62 Posts: 97/1867 EXP: 1971846 For next: 12840 Since: 03-15-04 From: Reading, UK Uni: Sheffield, UK Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 12 hours |
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| *scratches head* I admit that it's confusing me to hell I guess I naturally get upset whenever people disagree with the relationship between me and Chad... |
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Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101 Posts: 170/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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| Arwon, I ignored you (like I always do) because you completly ignored me. Apparently, you think I don't want them to have that list. Go back and re-read what I've said but this time, understand it. "It's about LOVE, not GOD." For us, God IS Love. We're both from different backgrounds/beliefs so we're never going to get anywhere with this. |
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Tarale I'm not under the alfluence of incohol like some thinkle peop I am. It's just the drunker I sit here the longer I get.  Level: 73  Posts: 44/2720 EXP: 3458036 For next: 27832 Since: 03-18-04 From: Adelaide, Australia Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| I think that it's a right that same sex couples should have, and I applaud Arwon's post. It's not about religion, it's not about God. It's about wanting the same rights under the LAW as a heterosexual couple. To be able to live our their lives together as a couple in the same ways that a heterosexual couple can. As it stands, they can't even visit their significant other in HOSPITAL for crying out loud under current laws. You wouldn't even CONSIDER not allowing a wife to see her dying husband, would you? Eh, I just think it's a little unfair of all the people who DO believe in God to deny same-sex couples those LEGAL rights, because of a religious issue. |
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