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1 user currently in Super Mario World hacking:  labmaster |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Super Mario World hacking - Is the creation of Lunar Magic a good thing? |
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Read the title.| Many people complain that the creation of Lunar Magic is the cause for the lack of good SMW hacks. | Lunar Magic was a big mistake! |
8.1%, 3 votes | Lunar Magic was what the SMW community really needed! |
81.1%, 30 votes | Lunar Magic? Is a brand of shoes? |
10.8%, 4 votes | Multi-voting is disabled.
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Escherial Shyguy Level: 17 Posts: 24/90 EXP: 20866 For next: 3877 Since: 03-15-04 From: Pasadena, CA Since last post: 202 days Last activity: 38 days |
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| Just because you can mix colors doesn't mean that you can do it well. Just because a tool is good doesn't mean that you can't produce garbage with it. Actually, it becomes that much more embarrassing to create garbage, because the tools are obviously not the problem. A tool is just a tool; it can't enable you to design well or badly, it just amplifies the qualities of the author. Heh, unless I'm deeply mistaken and there's a "generate awesome level" button in Lunar Magic someplace. |
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BMF98567 BLACK HAS BUILT A SILLY DICE-MAZE! GO! Current list of BURNING FURY >8( recipients: - Yiffy Kitten (x2) - Xkeeper Level: 53  Posts: 223/1261 EXP: 1094149 For next: 62970 Since: 03-15-04 From: Blobaria Special Move: Rising Meatloaf Backhand Combo Since last post: 21 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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 Sorry, couldn't resist... |
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Xkeeper The required libraries have not been defined. Level: NAN  Posts: -3959/-863 EXP: NAN For next: 0 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: -753366 sec. |
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Originally posted by BMF54123You know, I saw that dialog floating around LM's resources =o You have to type "supah1337hax0r" to get it, though. =| [ XD.. nice image, though] |
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Kario In Possession of a Stolen Shovel Level: 65 Posts: 403/2082 EXP: 2321379 For next: 14249 Since: 03-15-04 From: Texas... Yeehaw! Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 17 hours |
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| That pictures does prove a point though. Even if it did exist, there would be stupid people that need a help file. | |||
DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa  Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45  Posts: 200/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| The point of my analogies is that Lunar Magic shouldn't include lots of ASM hacks that can easily be applied without the user knowing an ounce of hex (notice, I said lots) because ASM hacking is a skill to obtain, just like being a good designer is. Lunar Magic has been a good thing and if it were to allow a user to, lets say, include SMB3-style pipes, then Fusoya's Demo World wouldn't be as impressive, would it? If and when Lunar Magic gets to this point, then I believe that's when it will become a bad idea. | |||
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Escherial Shyguy Level: 17 Posts: 25/90 EXP: 20866 For next: 3877 Since: 03-15-04 From: Pasadena, CA Since last post: 202 days Last activity: 38 days |
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| I can agree with that, I suppose. I mean, I think we're looking at two different values here: there's one, the hacking skill of the creator of a hack and two, the actual amount of useful modification one can do to the game. Certainly, if the tool does most of the work for you, then you're not much of a hacker, but that has no bearing on whether or not your hack is any good. Likewise, you could be an amazing hacker and still create a bad hack simply because your ideas aren't very interesting. I agree with DarkDaihz that a tool like Lunar Magic makes editing more accessible to the masses and consequently raises the bar for real hackers. I don't agree that this is necessarily a bad thing, probably because I'm not one of the original hackers who's seeing themselves swarmed by people who don't know the first thing about hacking creating roughly what the original hackers created with far more effort and intelligence. Being that DarkDaihz is an original hacker who actually put the effort into his hacks that Lunar Magic makes us take for granted, I completely understand where he's coming from now. (edited by Escherial on 06-19-04 02:08 PM) |
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asdf Cukeman Level: 28 Posts: 65/303 EXP: 128796 For next: 2542 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 54 min. |
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Originally posted by knuck Actually, no. Most just use them directly from the workshop, and nothing else. The real problem seems to lie within the fact that they don't know how to use them to their fullest extent. You need to plug and pull everything around to get it to work properly. |
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Kitten Yiffer Purple wand Furry moderator Vivent l'exp����¯�¿�½������©rience de signalisation d'amusement, ou bien ! Level: 135 Posts: 2571/11162 EXP: 28824106 For next: 510899 Since: 03-15-04 From: Sweden Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 4 min. |
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I don't mind seeing some of the workshop graphics being used. But I would like to see more custom stuff in them to.  And certain hacker just showed me a great demo, where there wasn't so many graphics changes. I still loved that hack...  |
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45 Posts: 203/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| See? Level design prevails over all! | |||
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Kario In Possession of a Stolen Shovel Level: 65 Posts: 416/2082 EXP: 2321379 For next: 14249 Since: 03-15-04 From: Texas... Yeehaw! Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 17 hours |
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| I would imagine that is part of the reason why Fu stopped adding new features to LM. If the editor literally edited everything in the game, the all the hacks would be the same, and it would get boring real fast. The entire SMW hacking community would just die. | |||
Atma X Bandit Level: 43  Posts: 397/801 EXP: 553639 For next: 11407 Since: 03-16-04 From: Derrière vous!!! Since last post: 43 days Last activity: 14 days |
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| I think the more features that were added, the better it would be. It would allow for more to be done to the hack, which would result it being better. You just have to play the good hacks, and not waste your time with the bad ones. I haven't even played more than 8 of hacks, because most of them suck (and I only play hacks that have good screenshots, or good comments and descriptions). |
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knuck Hinox Banned until 19-58-5815: trolling, flaming, spamming, being a general fucktard... Level: 62 Posts: 381/1818 EXP: 1894574 For next: 90112 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 9 hours |
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| asdf: "The real problem seems to lie within the fact that they don't know how to use them to their fullest extent." i don't know how many peole use the workshop, but i know it's at least 20 people. 20 hacks with the same gfx != boring? I might've missed something in those 2 years. |
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Parasyte Bullet Bill Level: 35  Posts: 87/514 EXP: 267348 For next: 12588 Since: 05-25-04 Since last post: 104 days Last activity: 32 days |
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| Kitten Yiffer and Kario hit the nail on the head. Daiz is going back to an old debate with hhallahh (or similar) where hhallahh figured having the editor apply more ASM hacks for clueless 'designers' would make the clueless designers feel almighty and powerful to do something assembly-related or such. Truth is, it would just be another feature for everyone to use, hence losing originality quickly. So if the assembly hacks fail to be original, how is that better for "the community"? You just end up with a "me too" syndrome with none of the hacks having any real payoff. You play one, and you've played them all. That's no good! Leave it up to the designer(s) to come up with some astonishing idea for their hack, to give it that extra kick. And if they are able to impliment it, more power to them. As for these people "hoarding" their special hacks, I believe that would be for the best. It's not exactly sportsman-like, but it will definitely limit all of the wannabe hackers from redoing the same damn thing over and over. In short, every utility can be a good thing; the potential is there. But once it gets to the point that it starts to do a ridiculous amount of things for you, it's time to stop before it becomes a bad thing. Take custom blocks, for example. It's more of the automatic insertion of a new feature, rather than editing an existing one. (Say, adding blocks breakable only by fireballs, as opposed to editing standard breakable blocks so small Mario can also break them.) At this point, you're getting into the "Do My Hack For Me" phase. Which will never be a good thing. In closing, learn to use Lunar Magic, and use it well. But also expand beyond what it is capable of. Do not limit yourself to using it, and it alone. Now go do something productive. |
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Sendy Shyguy Level: 17 Posts: 39/93 EXP: 21726 For next: 3017 Since: 03-25-04 From: South of UK Since last post: 55 days Last activity: 53 days |
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| So who are the 3 melons that voted LM as a Bad Thing? |
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Aioria Boss Bass  Yes I will!! ;D  Middle Ages Warrior Level: 58 Posts: 402/1567 EXP: 1516086 For next: 61460 Since: 03-15-04 From: near the pneumon ultramicroscop icsilicovolcanoconiosis land Since last post: 19 days Last activity: 19 days |
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| if the person is a great level designer, of course LM w/ his fast and nice dealing with tools is a great instrument for this person make his/her work well done So who are the 3 melons that voted LM as a Bad Thing? i ask the same (edited by Aioria on 06-20-04 03:56 PM) |
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45 Posts: 206/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| I'd like to also bring up that the LM hasn't really been the cause of many bad hacks. In reality, the ratio of good to bad hacks for SMW are probably the same for any other game, FF, SMB1-3, MM series, CV series, etc. With any editor, you're going to get more bad hacks than good, but what makes a good hack is what the user does with what they are given, not the limitations placed on them from one tool. Lunar Magic really is an excellent editor, and Fusoya can't help that so many bad hacks were made with it. | |||
hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38  Posts: 283/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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Originally posted by DahrkDaiz That's kinda a point, but by that logic, LM shouldn't have been released at all. I mean, imagine how awesome DW:TLC would have been if there were no other SMW hacks, right? But really, what makes DW:TLC so great? The SMB3-style pipes? Fuck no. It's the design, straight up. And no amount of tools can give you good design - or as BMF put it, "make hack awesome". Either way, hackers will always be able to go beyond what LM can do... for example, you can add lots of little things to LM, and someone like BMF will still be able to stand out for lots of cool new elements (as he already does.) Daiz is going back to an old debate with hhallahh (or similar) where hhallahh figured having the editor apply more ASM hacks for clueless 'designers' would make the clueless designers feel almighty and powerful to do something assembly-related or such. No, what I said is that having elite hackers that have exclusive knowledge to certain aspects of the game will discourage other hackers from trying to being with. Quite different. Just a clarification.. |
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45 Posts: 208/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| ASM Hacking isn't holding exclusive information. ASM hacking, much like programming, graphics designing, level designing, story writing, etc, is a skill that one obtains from learning and experimentation and has NO bearing on your ability to design a good hack. ASM hackers also start on the same playing field as everyone else. Lunar Magic gives you everything you need to make an excellent hack, if you think you need ASM hacks to make a better designed hack, then your idea of a well designed hack is severely flawed. And remember, ASM hacking isn't about mere data knowledge, it involves much more than that, like problem solving. | |||
Gavin Fuzzy Rhinoceruses don't play games. They fucking charge your ass. Level: 43  Posts: 66/799 EXP: 551711 For next: 13335 Since: 03-15-04 From: IL, USA Since last post: 13 hours Last activity: 13 hours |
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Originally posted by hhallahh i certainly disagree with that last comment. Did every physicist who came after Newton say, "Oh shit, Newton did it all. let's give up, that's the universe right there in those laws." Not at all. They knew there was more. When people look at things that Acmlm did, they said "Oh wow, that's some amazing stuff... but i wonder what else can be done." Which is exactly what DD did, he saw things like that and said "Wow, that stuff is great.. but maybe i can do no? and the part about the "exclusive knowledge".. it's not like it was just handed to them. The few who have this knowledge worked extremely hard to obtain it. So to me it's fair. If they work thier asses off learning the stuff, they sure as heck can apply it to make a kick-ass hack and btw:  |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 284/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Lunar Magic gives you everything you need to make an excellent hack, if you think you need ASM hacks to make a better designed hack, then your idea of a well designed hack is severely flawed.. I think it's severely flawed to imply that someone can make a hack that couldn't be improved in some way through ASM hacking. 0_o; I'm sure you can make an excellent hack without ASM hacking.. especially in the SMW community, because there are so many tools that you don't need highly advanced knowledge in order to create a good work. That's why LM is so great. Which is exactly what DD did, he saw things like that and said "Wow, that stuff is great.. but maybe i can do ...". Yea, some people will do that. A lot of them won't. A lot of people, for example, will hack SMW instead of SMB3 or whatever because they don't have to figure out all that stuff. You can be a great designer and try to be efficient at the same time. I mean, why even hack games? Wouldn't it be better if you just built everything from scratch? Maybe.. but no one is going to do that, because it's a ridiculous prospect. and the part about the "exclusive knowledge".. it's not like it was just handed to them. The few who have this knowledge worked extremely hard to obtain it. So to me it's fair. If they work thier asses off learning the stuff, they sure as heck can apply it to make a kick-ass hack Yea, I made a big point of this during the last debate... I don't care if you have exclusive knowledge and choose to keep it. I can't judge you on that. However, I can say that you risk discouraging others. That's all. |
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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Super Mario World hacking - Is the creation of Lunar Magic a good thing? |
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