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Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - General Chat - How do you feel about the war in Iraq? | |
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hhallahh

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Posted on 04-28-04 05:00 AM Link | Quote
Well, removing Saddam is only part of the plan. Now we have to make a democracy or whatever. May fail, but it's really too early to declare defeat.
Eyebarb
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Posted on 04-28-04 05:02 AM Link | Quote
Technically it wouldn't be a defeat anyway because we romoved Saddam. Now for Osama...
kitty
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Posted on 04-28-04 05:06 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by hhallahh
700 people die in a year, that does not a quagmire make. 100 people died in this month! Oh my! Should I quote some Vietnam figures, to get a comparison to a real quagmire?

A quagmire (from "quake" + "mire") is, literally, shaky, miry ground; as a political term used to describe a foreign military campaign in which there is either no forseeable possibility of victory or [AND] the objectives are unclearly defined, and at the same time no clear exit strategy has been formulated in the absence of victory.
Typically, a quagmire occurs when a major power attempts with little success to subdue a foreign guerrilla insurgency. Often matters of national pride or belief in military invincibility are the cause of the lack of an exit strategy.
So if your definition of a quagmire is that, then why do you not believe Iraq is one? Everything in bold is more than true.

Just because not as many people are dying in Iraq as they were in Vietnam doesn't mean it's any less of a quagmire. In Vietnam at least the majority of people were glad we were there. In Iraq, 80% of the citizens want us out.

edit: I REALLY don't want to comment on this anymore. Clearly, hindsight being 20/20, we should never have gone in. I thought the war was valid when they had the pictures of the WMDs which turned out to be false. But I didn't know this, neither did the public.
Now I don't know what to do and neither does the current presidency. Bush (and his advisors) fucked up and now can't get out of this mess.

(edited by Yiffy Kitten on 04-27-04 08:08 PM)
Eyebarb
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Posted on 04-28-04 05:14 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by hhallahh
Typically, a quagmire occurs when a major power tries with little or no success to remove from power a guerrilla insurgency.

We successfully removed Saddamm from power.
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Posted on 04-28-04 05:20 AM Link | Quote
Saddam wasn't the guerrila insurgency. Once again your ignorance causes you to fail in an argument. Saddam was the leader of the regime. The guerrilla fighters are still alive and well.
Perhaps you need to look up the word "guerrilla"
hhallahh

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Posted on 04-28-04 05:22 AM Link | Quote
I believe that there's a forseeable possibility of victory, I believe that progress is being made somewhere. The objectives are clearly defined: Set up a suitable, stable government and get out. How do we do this? Idunno, I'm not an expert, but it's a lot harder to argue that it won't be done than it may or may not be done. That's why I wouldn't call it a quagmire.

The Fallujah / Sunni Triangle situation concerns a vast minority of a population. 80% may want us out, but 80% also condemn the violence against U.S. soldiers.

Hindsight is 20/20, and naturally foresight is a lot worse... that's why I'm reluctant to say that "X will happen in Iraq", and I cringe whenever I hear anyone else do so. Saying that they "can't get out" is ridiculous... we haven't even reneged on the June 30th deadline yet. Either way, things like Fallujah are, at the moment, isolated incidents, and should have no bearing on anyone's assessment of the situation, unless they have a good reason to think that these episodes are endemic of more serious problems that will inevitably materialize. I am not of this opinion, but I'm loathe to argue what won't happen as much as I am to argue what will. Nobody knows.
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Posted on 04-28-04 05:24 AM Link | Quote
But that doesn't change the fact that we removed the head of the regime from power. That doesn't change the fact that we didn't have business staying there as long as we are.
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Posted on 04-28-04 05:28 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Eyebarb
Originally posted by hhallahh
Typically, a quagmire occurs when a major power tries with little or no success to remove from power a guerrilla insurgency.

We successfully removed Saddamm from power.

This has nothing to do with Saddam. Read my post again. Read it 200 times if you must.
Saddam was the leader of the regime. The guerrilla fighters are still alive and well.
Perhaps you need to look up the word "guerrilla"
Removing the head of a regime doesn't do any damn good when there are so many people/soldiers around who supported him and would do anything to return to that type of regime.

What do you suggest, we should have bombed the fuck out of them (like we did), forcefully go in (like we did), capture Saddam and his sons, dead or alive (like we did), and then LEAVE the country as a mess?

(edited by Yiffy Kitten on 04-27-04 08:29 PM)
Eyebarb
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Posted on 04-28-04 05:31 AM Link | Quote
You're right. We should fix the mess that we made.
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