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1 user currently in Rom Hacking:  hukka |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - Sad State Solutions (Please read!) |
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Stifu Level: 28  Posts: 225/304 EXP: 129458 For next: 1880 Since: 03-16-04 From: Your mom's bed Since last post: 18 hours Last activity: 11 hours |
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Originally posted by BGNG I'm afraid you're overestimating your authority. ¬_¬ And I wasn't disrespectful at all, I was merely trying to burst your bubble and give you a reality check... So as to help you to not waste your time on something that will not give the results you expect. But if you want to go ahead, then fine... Don't worry, I'm out of this thread. Despite what you think, I'm not there to troll, I was just giving my honest opinion on the matter. And I don't want your little project to screw up or anything, I'm just convinced it will, that is all. (edited by Stifu on 10-06-05 03:02 AM) |
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bbitmaster Koopa Level: 18  Posts: 101/103 EXP: 25264 For next: 4633 Since: 03-28-04 From: Knoxville, tTN Since last post: 12 days Last activity: 7 days |
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| BGNG, while I commend you for attempting to come up with an "Uber Solution" solution for this community, I can't say I agree with it. First of all, I completely agree with dan and rg_ here, a closed source editor doesn't help anybody, I personally consider it selfish, negative, and extremely unhelpful. It's negative because it looks down on people. I mean think about it, you basically said "People tend to steal without giving credit." Sure, you run the risk, but I tend to believe that if I ask someone to simply give credit for my work, they generally will. And I can rest happy that my work was a benefit to others. Think about this: What if parasyte hadn't released FCEUD with the source code because of this irrational fear that someone would steal from him? There would be no FCEUXD. nor FCEUXD SP. (technically he had to because it was GPL, but assume it wasn't GPL for the sake of the example) I find it ironic that you condemn open source which is all about people sharing and learning from each other's work, and at the same time you propose a "community-wide" project that accomplishes the same thing. Personally, I'm against this community-wide project to begin with. Because, much like rg_ said, a large community wide project has never been successful before. I've personally seen it attempted several times over the years, and never get beyond an idea. You may not believe it right now, but trust me, there is no way what you propose will work, unless you can get a group of extremely hard core dedicated people, which you will not find anywhere around here. I've seen large group projects fail in many other communities as well. For example, when a new multiplayer FPS game (say, medal of honor, battlefield, call of duty, ect) comes out for the PC, you'll see perhaps a hundred different mod projects spring up. Most of them with a fairly large set of members, all making big claims as to how their mod is going to be so great. in the end, maybe one out of every ten get anywhere. The reason? It takes extremely hard core dedicated people, as well as excellent leadership to pull off any very large project. I see no way this could ever even possibly begin to work around here. But again, as rg_ said, I think the answer lies in encouraging, and giving people the resources and tools they need to do smaller projects. More tutorials and quick guides should be written and made available in a central location. This could really help bridge the knowledge gap between the new people, and the old experienced hackers. This could also help solve the laziness problem that I pointed out in my other thread, simply by motivating people to read the tutorials and try things out. (edited by bbitmaster on 10-05-05 01:40 PM) (edited by bbitmaster on 10-05-05 01:41 PM) |
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BGNG Snifit Level: 22  Posts: 266/276 EXP: 56579 For next: 1771 Since: 06-03-05 Since last post: 8 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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| Have I been unclear in what I have said? I shall reiterate... There are issues of concern in this community, and people have gone so far as to publicly complain about them. I see that as a problem. Because I wish for the best in this community, I've taken the opportunity to identify what the issues seem to be and what can be done about them. I proposed a series of solutions that may or may not be helpful; each of which I am willing to partake in myself if they lead to improvement in the long run. I am met, however, with disbelief and scorn from my fellow members. Does this community want to remain problem-prone as it has lamented about being in the past? Is the idea of posting one more complaint thread more appealing than correcting the problem altogether? I never said I wanted everyone to throw away the term "ROM Hacking." I never said that a Wiki will make things bright and shiny. I never said I wanted to do a community-wide hack. You (whoever you are; I'm not referring to anyone in particular) have a choice to make a difference. Decide whether you want to increase corrosion in the community or take steps to remove it. Don't come tell me I'm an idiot for suggesting what might be able to be done. In regards to open-source, I support it. What I don't support is people who use source just because it works. I have experience with people using my code and regarding it as some untouchable API. They didn't know how it worked because they didn't even look at the code. They saw that it worked and they ignorantly used it as if it was granted as a gift. They blindly used my code without learning anything. The only thing that resulted was wasted time on my behalf. Open-source projects will allow for the project to be updated, but won't necessarily help anyone learn more of what they do. |
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NEONswift Rope Level: 19 Posts: 114/117 EXP: 30883 For next: 4894 Since: 03-17-04 From: England Since last post: 24 days Last activity: 1 day |
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| thievery is a bastard, offensiveness to noobs (god i hate that word) is just down right rude and open source only works if those that use it learn from it. Copying and pasting teaches you absolutely nothing. Ive "stolen" my fair share of html source but ive always looked over it and because of this i have a better understanding of how webpages work. I agree with everything you say BGNG about new members and the lack of sharing and if these things were improved then variety among hacks would improve. Which IMO is the thing the community needs. The most impressive project to date is Super Mario 64 and thats being done with 3-5 people sharing info freely in one thread. Any more people and it could possibly just fall apart which is why i disagree with a uber hack. If newbies are gonna simple show up and use LunarMagic to edit mario then they need to feel welcome to expand and spread into other areas. I remember back a couple of years when me Euclid, Seph and Omega were sharing our knowledge of Zelda3. We were all able to get past issues with the rom and Seph went on to release the most helpful guide - not to mention the only guide - for Hyrule Magic. This sharing needs to continue. |
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xZeaLitYx Cheep-cheep Level: 23  Posts: 182/199 EXP: 66932 For next: 791 Since: 04-13-04 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 3 hours |
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| Editors shouldn't take that much of a bad rap as the games become more complex. Chrono Trigger would be totally un-fucking-touchable in terms of locations and events to all but the most experienced if Temporal Flux hadn't been released. Well, my main question is, what game is this ultimate hack proposed for? |
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BGNG Snifit Level: 22 Posts: 267/276 EXP: 56579 For next: 1771 Since: 06-03-05 Since last post: 8 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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| It's only a proposal. The selection of a game will be announced only after the decision to go through with it is finalized. | |||
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Insomnia DMX Level: 7  Posts: 21/23 EXP: 1125 For next: 323 Since: 07-21-05 From: East Cleveland, OH Since last post: 11 days Last activity: 1 day |
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| The undedicated people will weed themselves out, I say there is nothing we can do for a more peaceful community than to have higher restrictions, and few of us want that... As for noob bashing, I highly dislike it, because it can tend to damage self-esteem of up-and-coming rom hackers, and slow them down. Mostly on sensitive people... About a community-wide group hack, that's improbable. Our best course of action is to help "noobs" become the rom hackers that they will be in the future, never turn down a reasonable question, and try to help people hands-on. There is nothing wrong with editors, and my hack would be nothing without SMILE. However if I just used SMILE to edit levels, my hack would also be boring and unoriginal. Throughout my work on my hack, I wanted dearly to learn how to hack like the "big boys" and it was this determination that enabled me to learn what I know about ASM. (which isn't much btw, but it's growing quickly) In other words, if you condemn the roots of some of some of the best new rom hackers today, (Editors) you are condemning its future, whether you like it or not... |
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Glyph Phoenix Level: 39  Posts: 607/745 EXP: 385876 For next: 18895 Since: 11-07-04 Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Get off your freaking high horse, BGNG. "I've taken the opportunity to identify what the issues seem to be and what can be done about them" and "I am met, however, with disbelief and scorn from my fellow members"? People give you quality responses, you shoot them down, then you get mad at other people for doing the same to yours. You aren't the first person to propose "Let's work together". You aren't the first person to propose possible solutions. Don't act like you're better than people just because you've been tossing around ancient ideas. You can accuse me and the others of pessimism all you like, but you're mistaken - it's not pessimistic thinking, it's realistic thinking. We're not mad at you because of your 'solution', but because you make comments like "Delete your reply, Stifu". What was going on in your head when you made that comment? You can't order people out of your thread because they don't think your idea is peppermint and roses, and it makes you look like an idiot when you try. For your sake, stop it. |
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dan Snap Dragon Level: 43  Posts: 757/782 EXP: 534516 For next: 30530 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 20 hours Last activity: 14 hours |
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| A community hack that everyone can participate to won't work. Ignoring the fact that the hack will end up as a patchwork of people's work, but everyone has different system preferences. I don't know anything about hacking any other than NES games. I'm sure there are others who are in a similar situation. Who decides what game is hacked? Some people may not be interested in a particular game. It's a nice (but old) idea, but I have never seen it work out in any community.  |
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 7503/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Who screwed up the thread?  Anyway, a board-wide hack will never work. Hacks done by more than 2 people rarely get finished let alone hundreds. There are 3 problems with the ROM hacking community: 1) N00bs are looked down on and people will simply refuse to teach them. The solution being to stop being so rude, or make a good tutorial. A site like Zophar's, but with less suck and more updates would be great. 2) People see editors that can make all sorts of changes to a game, and immediately think that these editors can do absolutely everything. They set unrealistic goals, then quit altogether when they find out the amount of work involved. 3) People hoard info. Really, when someone asks for a simple address or some such, and you know it, will it kill you to open your notes/source code/whatever and spend 2 minutes finding it? Messy notes are not an excuse. Take some time to organize, and you won't have this problem. |
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Glyph Phoenix Level: 39 Posts: 612/745 EXP: 385876 For next: 18895 Since: 11-07-04 Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| I think you guys are too hard on the more senior hackers. There's the occasional case of "find it yourself" BS, but more often than not they're willing to open up and give you all sorts of information. And n00bs have tons of chances to learn. Google, Zophar.net, stickies at large, and simply posting clearly here can net them a wealth of information. If they can't figure out what's laid out in readmes, then it's too bad for them. All newbies aren't looked down upon. Only the stupid ones. |
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Sukasa Boomboom Error 349857348734534: The system experienced an error. Level: 57  Posts: 1904/1981 EXP: 1446921 For next: 39007 Since: 02-06-05 From: *Shrug* Since last post: 6 days Last activity: 1 day |
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| I have to say that I agree with many of BGNG's points. He did disect the problem very well IMO, and while the uber-hack would not work because of conflicting timetables, world-wide size, and sheer managing challenges, there no reason that there cannot be a site that has game-inspecific data, but to further it's usefulness, have game-specific data also there, but stored in a different file, so that eople can choose from generalized or centralized data. In fact, why don't I get started on a template now? I know a fair bit of ASP (3?), and SQL management (well, T-sql), so I could put something together with a bit of time, as long as I have time to accumulate the money I need- I could even have a custom web address, if it suits the need. The problem I found with tutorials is that they're hard to break into, say in qwerties SNES doc, it took me a while to figure out some of what he posted because it was not done in an easy-to-understand format, whereas with one site, that could be done much easier. Also, there should be more said about editor limitations, because people say that n00bs find out what an editor cannot do, well, nobody told them, that lead them (indirectly) to form false ideas about the power of the editors. |
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FuSoYa Defender of Relm Level: 26  Posts: 246/255 EXP: 99529 For next: 2746 Since: 03-15-04 From: Moon Since last post: 7 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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Originally posted by HyperHacker ...why is it that whenever one of these "sharing/community" types of threads come up, it seems like most people are only looking for an excuse to toss around complaints in the form of suggestions for other people? Interesting way to build a community.  |
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa  Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45  Posts: 846/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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Originally posted by HyperHacker Untrue. If a noob is willing to listen and picks up on things, then many of the senior hackers will offer them help. However, what I think the problem is is that some think that ANYBODY can do ROM-Hacking and they can't. ROM-hacking is an art and skill that not anyone can do. There's a lot of soft skills required before tackling such a hobby. Patience, analytical and logical skills, a basic understanding of how computers work (like RAM, ROM, etc), and the ability to COMMUNICATE well. People who expect this stuff to fall in their lap get shunned away. Those who seriously want to be taught go to those who are willing to teach. When I was a noob, no body bothered to teach me. I started at Challenge games and received no help so I came to Acmlm's where there would be help. I asked stupid questions and got shunned away but I _stuck with it_. If we all stopped to teach every nooby that wanted to learn to hack like the pros, we'd never get our own stuff done. Plus, since ROM-hacking requires several skills, you must realize that you must find the appropriate tutorials yourself. They ARE out there, I've used them. Learning hex, learning how to use cheat searches, finding palletes, etc. I've seen them and used them all. Originally posted by HyperHacker This is mostly the case with Lunar Magic and need not apply to most of ROM-hacking. Originally posted by HyperHacker People don't hoard info as much as you think. I believe the problem is that they change data but don't document it. I know that's _my_ biggest problem. I have a lot of data that I share but a lot of it I simply don't bother to write it down. |
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 7514/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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The big problem with not helping newbies is that unless they know a certain amount already, nobody seems to think they're smart enough to bother with. I didn't know hex when I first started hacking. When was the last time you saw someone here asking what hex was and getting a real, decent answer? Also, when people do answer, it's often too complicated for them.  You're probably right about the issue of not writing things down (though why you wouldn't is beyond me), but there are a fair amount of cases where people simply refuse to help. The biggest problem is that in the community I really learned to hack in, nobody would help anybody. Literally every time someone asked for hacking-related information, the only replies they would recieve were crap like "If I tell you, you won't learn anything" or "If you can't find it yourself, you obviously aren't smart enough to do it anyway". Of course it's true that just copying information leads you nowhere, but when you already know how to do something, but don't want to waste your time re-finding what others have already found, it's not exactly an issue. (That place died pretty quick BTW. )Fortunately, this kind of thing has been mostly limited to a few SMW hackers around here, and others are beginning to find the same information and share it. But I don't understand how you can watch people struggling to figure something out, when you have all the information they need right there in some source code on your hard drive, and just pass it by. Think how much more advanced SMW hacks would be right now if Fu just cut and pasted a few addresses from LM's source or if Jonwil would simply post the code for his Map16-changing routines instead of insisting we trace through several thousand bytes of raw hex that jumps around everywhere. Really, ROM hacking communities depend entirely on sharing information. Everything from random addresses to editors' source codes. Keeping it to yourself accomplishes nothing... and if you aren't even documenting what you find, well... |
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asdf Cukeman Level: 28 Posts: 281/303 EXP: 128796 For next: 2542 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 54 min. |
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Originally posted by HyperHacker The downside to sharing info is that sometimes, when you do it, the middle to high-class hackers expect you to use it. Just look at SMW. HDMA has been released, which is all fine and dandy. However, some people nearly demand that HDMA be used in a hack. Oh, and n00b/Middle Class wars. The common middle class are the ones that start the most trouble, ironically. They fail to tolerate the n00bs, who are just trying their best (although if there is ignorance running amok, there may be a problem). Here are some of the things the middle class bitch about. - OMG NO SCREENIES DIE This is the worst argument ever. First off, it's screenshots, not screenies. But more importantly, some people may be asking for input. If someone were to make an eccentric hack and post screenshots of the hack, people might judge the hack on the quirks alone ("that's a stupid idea"). Sure, most people are pretty nice, but that doesn't change the fact that many n00bs are afraid of criticism. Sure, screenshots are a good hook, but I pity anyone who needs an image to orgasm over a hack. Sometimes, the best of the best might post hack info without screenshots, usually if they want to tease their audience. And do people complain about that? Noooooooooooo...granted, there is a level of respect involved, but that's judging people by their postcount or their join date. They're just fucking numbers. I remember there was this one SMW hacker who came out of nowhere. He was new, and he has respect. Are the simple-minded not similar? Is it wrong to complain about a hack not having screenshots? In summary, when a n00b posts hack info with no screenshots, it's either a placeholder (tolerate it) or a topic to gather opinions before they start. - MY EYES!!!!!!! AUUUGHHH!!!! A SEIZURE!!!!! THOSE COLORS SUCK!!!!!!!! Seriously, if you get a seizure from looking at bright colors, you need to see a doctor. Now. There are some scenarios in which the colors are horrible, but this is merely a case of standards being too high. Unless there is a strobe effect or something, this is just a dumb comment. More as they come to me (or you) - UNORIGINAL!!! So? It's merely inspiration. Hell, why don't we lynch all users who make grass worlds in Mario hacks for ripping off the first hack of that game (however shitty it may be)? Besides, the "unoriginal" hacker might add a twist or two of their own to the "borrowed" idea. For example, some recent "hacking fad" in SMW right now seems to be elemental worlds. While one hacker might have an ice plain world, another might have an ice mountain or ice lake world. While one might have a standard grass world for their...uhh...grass world, another might save it for later for a plant world riddled with overgrowth. Simply put, the same idea done by two different hacks will not give the same result. (edited by asdf on 10-07-05 01:37 AM) |
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FuSoYa Defender of Relm Level: 26 Posts: 247/255 EXP: 99529 For next: 2746 Since: 03-15-04 From: Moon Since last post: 7 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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| The biggest problem is that in the community I really learned to hack in, nobody would help anybody. I'm sorry to hear that. But I don't understand how you can watch people struggling to figure something out, when you have all the information they need right there in some source code on your hard drive, and just pass it by. Hmm, let's see... Could it be that I've already helped x people this week? That I'm extremely busy? That I'd like to get some of my own things done? That I'm not responsible to help every single person with every little problem that they could possibly have? Honestly, HH. Just because you learned in an environment where no one helped you is no reason to go running around assuming that anyone who doesn't always give you what you want is automatically selfish/hoarding/whatever. Quite frankly, I find the insinuation rather rude, and I'm asking you politely to stop.  Jonwil would simply post the code for his Map16-changing routines instead of insisting we trace through several thousand bytes of raw hex that jumps around everywhere. Well then, you may as well blame the right person. I believe that's the routine he decompiled and used (with my permission) from the original Demo World. I imagine he doesn't bother to release what he has, because there's not much for useful comments in it. Not that my source is all that much better mind you, as the routine is partially based on one in the original game and I wasn't looking to document how it works. Yet when the subject comes up now and then in the forum, I've come close to digging it up and releasing it. Needless to say, I don't exactly feel like doing that now. Really, ROM hacking communities depend entirely on sharing information. Communities depend entirely on people. People are far more important than information. Which is why the complaints that inevitably come up in these kind of threads tend to bug me. There's more than enough room in the scene for everyone, whether you release source/utilities/help newbies/whatever or not. And if that ever stops being the case, people like me will simply leave.  |
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The Kins Kodondo Level: 38  Posts: 572/595 EXP: 354733 For next: 15714 Since: 03-15-04 From: Melbourne, VIC, Australia Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 9 hours |
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OK, flicked through the thread.Originally posted by BGNGSayonara, credibility! We don't look down on newbies, but on idiots. Unfortunately, a good deal of new people tend to be idiots. Helping them is of course the best way, but keep in mind that people can only put up with so much. Also, the word "n00bs" should stay in AOL chatrooms, CS servers and the year 2000 where it belongs. Originally posted by BGNGI can smell the ego, e-penis and internet tauntrums from here. All this would do is fragment the community, rather than help it. Besides, if everyone who would participate in such a project made a hack of their own, we would have a hundred good hacks, instead of one steaming, unfinished trainwreck. Originally posted by BGNGThis is familiar! Probably because the Quake community already do it, and it seems rather successful. I would not be opposed to such challeges, as similar challenges in FPS communities (levels using a limited amount of space/resources, hacks done in a certain time limit...) have been quite successful. Originally posted by BGNGI... what? Yes you did. Originally posted by BGNGUncanny Strange Deja Vu... Originally posted by Glyph PhoenixLess a high horse, more he'll go blind if he keeps it up. Originally posted by HyperHackerActually, it's more like hacks by one person or more rarely get done. Therin lies our problem - namely, we have the collective attention span of a 9 year old DBZ fan. And I'm as guilty of this as you, and indeed everyone in this thread is.  Originally posted by HyperHackere-Penis. Originally posted by HyperHackere-Penis. Originally posted by asdf  And I'm spent. (edited by The Kins on 10-07-05 05:56 AM) |
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Stifu Level: 28 Posts: 227/304 EXP: 129458 For next: 1880 Since: 03-16-04 From: Your mom's bed Since last post: 18 hours Last activity: 11 hours |
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| I have never been in direct contact with FuSoYa, but for his defense, I have to say he's been a great help for me and Ok Impala!, concerning our little hack project. He may just answer one line messages (I just remember Impala mentioning that, that's all ), but those made us save a lot of time... |
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 7523/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by asdf Well it's not bad when people say they want feedback on their idea. When they say that they're already working on a hack, and don't give any information, then it gets annoying. "I made an SMW hack where I changed the levels" - unless the levels are good, nobody cares, and it's difficult to tell without screenshots. Originally posted by FuSoYa Sorry if it's bothering you, but I simply can't understand how looking up a piece of information in your notes is going to stop you from getting your own things done. It takes me an average of one minute every time someone asks me to look something up, 3 if it's not filed correctly and I have to search for it. Unless your notes are horribly messy, well that's just bad practice. In particular, I'm talking about this sort of thing, which somewhat contradicts what you've said:
See, I don't feel like doing a lot of things that I do for others, but I do them anyway to help people. You obviously like to help people, or else you wouldn't have even released LM. People ask me to look something up while I'm working all the time, and it's never stopped me from finishing what I was working on (unless I didn't know the answer and suddenly decided to find out ).If you don't want to post your information or if you've done such a crappy job filing it that it becomes a chore, then fine. I appreciate all the help you have given everyone already. I'm not the kind of person who can stand having poorly-written notes, so I'm guessing that's the big issue... I could sort them for you if you really wanted.
So what, you wrote it? Did you give him permission to release it? If not, I guess that explains a lot. I don't think many people will care if there's no comments though. We hack games for fun.
Er... what do you mean by 'enough room'? Originally posted by The Kins No... idiocy and lack of knowledge are 2 very different things. If you simply don't know and want to learn, then you're simply a newbie, and if you look around and ask a bit you'll find all the information you need. If you refuse to learn, then you're an idiot and notr worth teaching. |
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