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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Prison systems/Death sentences |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35  Posts: 490/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| Actually Zero, I hate children, and if biology and society somehow tricks me into having them I'm going to keep them in line through a sophisticated regime of psychological torture. But that's largely irrelevant here. What I'm saying is that the tendency for people to get hysterical about, say, kiddie-fiddlers and try to outdo each other suggesting bloodthirsty torments for them is quite disturbing and calls to my mind mobs stoning people. A disturbing number of people want to enshrine rage and emotionalism and vengeance into a rational and objective justice system and that's fucked up. When the government incarcerates someone, they have a certain responsibility and a certain duty of care. They can't just lock them in an open enclosure in Alaska and call it a prison and say it's okay because they broke the law - they have certain responsibilities and one of those is to not fucking treat them sadistically. The punishments proscribed are INCARCERATION FOR A FIXED TIME PERIOD not the taking away of all human rights and dignity. And really, occupied, entertained prisoners are less likely to riot and kill guards or each other. And what's with the assumption that anything more than a small minority in prisons are "murderers and serial killers and OTHER EVIL PEOPLE"? THe vast, vast majority are people caught with a joint, petty thieves, tax evaders, people who got into a drunken fist-fight, and so forth. Hardly evil people who deserve to be robbed of all fucking petty little pleasures because a few whiney moralistic cranks outside the walls say they should be made to suffer more. (edited by Arwon on 09-29-05 02:32 AM) (edited by Arwon on 09-29-05 02:33 AM) (edited by Arwon on 09-29-05 02:34 AM) (edited by Arwon on 09-29-05 02:35 AM) |
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Zer0wned Cheep-cheep Level: 17  Posts: 164/181 EXP: 21472 For next: 3271 Since: 08-16-05 From: Hermosa Beach, CA Since last post: 30 days Last activity: 30 days |
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| And what's with the assumption that anything more than a small minority in prisons are "murderers and serial killers and OTHER EVIL PEOPLE"? THe vast, vast majority are people caught with a joint, petty thieves, tax evaders, people who got into a drunken fist-fight, and so forth. Hardly evil people who deserve to be robbed of all fucking petty little pleasures because a few whiney moralistic cranks outside the walls say they should be made to suffer more. I'm talking about prison, not jail. You don't get time in a penitentiary for dickin around a little. You get time in the pen for "messing up" a little, but consistantly, doing some BIG time tax evasion or other similar money crimes (insider trading, money laundering), in which case they're probably WELL aware of the possible concequences, and most likely don't need to do it anyway, and you get time for doing something that probably hurt someone else, or serveral other people in a very direct and deliberate way. Yes, of course there should be a line to be drawn. But likewise with a limit in the direction of harshness, there needs to be a limit on leniance as well. It is my belief that the current balance of mercy is a little too high, and needs to be tweaked, some, no extremes need be made. As for my stance on the death penalty, I hate to say it, but I'm against things that are cost inneffective, and don't think it should be a common implementation for any case until the price tag can be brought down. As for the concept, however, some people cannot be corrected, and other times refuse to be. Nothing wrong with cleaning the herd. |
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The SomerZ Summer, yay! Level: 45  Posts: 833/862 EXP: 618182 For next: 41982 Since: 03-15-04 From: Norway Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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| People need to know why what they're doing is wrong, not simply that it is wrong.You can't just implement scary punishments for crime, it's not the right way to go.Our moral systems will work when we know tht something is wrong, not when we're afraid of reprecussions, Kant said that. And, also, you people do realize that you're discussing the lives of other human beings, and the financial benefits of ending such lives. You should be ashamed of yourselves. |
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Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101  Posts: 5432/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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Originally posted by The SomerZ Actually, if you feel that murderers and child rapists, among others, deserve a chance to live in this world than you should be ashamed of yourself. It's this kind of mentality that allows repeat crimes to happen. Let's not fool ourselves, people rarely change. Who you were as a young adult fundamentally is typically the person you grow up to be and the person you remain. People know it's against the law to murder and rape people. And you all suggest that we "teach" them what they already know? Please. They don't deserve to live on the same planet as us, they don't deserve to even live. |
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Grey the Stampede Don't mess with powers you don't understand. And yes. That means donuts. Level: 82  Posts: 3316/3770 EXP: 5192909 For next: 16318 Since: 06-17-04 From: Kingston, RI, USA, Earth Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| I'd cough up something idealistic about diversity and moral standing and how everyone deserves a right to live, and how killing makes you no better than the murderers and all of that cheesy anti-death penalty stuff, but really, the case sells itself. It's kinda like the bully you meet in elementary school. He's got the guts to hit you, but you don't hit him back. Why don't you hit him back? Everyone's told you that violence doesn't solve everything, but it seems to be solving things well enough for him. |
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geeogree Bloober Level: 34  Posts: 419/448 EXP: 231583 For next: 22068 Since: 03-16-04 From: Calgary, Canada Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 11 hours |
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| Ziff: why would you quote someone if you didn't agree with them? at least a little? | |||
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Zer0wned Cheep-cheep Level: 17 Posts: 166/181 EXP: 21472 For next: 3271 Since: 08-16-05 From: Hermosa Beach, CA Since last post: 30 days Last activity: 30 days |
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| I think I can answer that for him. (just guessing, of course, not trying to answer for the guy) Because he can/For the hell of it/For arguement's sake. You totally missed his point anyway, I find it annoying when people pick the sentence they find convenient, and use that against you, instead of the main point. Originally posted by The SomerZ "And, also, you people do realize that you're discussing the lives of other human beings, and the financial benefits of ending such lives. You should be ashamed of yourselves." I started the topic, I feel absolutely no shame of it. I could just as easily say you should be ashamed of yourself for using shame tactics. Seriously though, individual human life is extremely overrated. You've gotta see the forest from the trees sometimes. If you have to chop down one infected tree in order to save some of the surrounding, you've done a bad thing for a good reason, that's what the basis of execution is. Execution has been abused throughout history, but pain medication regularly is abused too, that mean we're just going to stop making pain medication? The core reasoning behind it, the practically genetic urge for this final form of "justice" (in quotes because that's highly debatable, and I seriously don't want to have to read anything in regards to that right now  ) is about cleaning the herd, "chopping down" dangers within society. The whole "just stick them in there for the rest of their life" alternative is flawed, a criminal mind crazy enough to want to be killed by his/her peers, in place to gain respect and influence in jail, pass on what they've learned to future inmates? Let me tell you a little story about something that's happened in California. Several gang leaders from major gangs in california were incarcerated for life. They were fairly isolated from the rest of the prison, but OOPS, their exercise rooms were in some way linked by the piping systems, so they could still talk to each other. The result? The more simple thug-like runnings from before became much more organised in the case of all of those gangs, and began branching out. Wouldn't have happened if we'd just killed em, eh? Although that's an isolated case, and some instances do actually happen where a lifer learns more about life, and uses gained respect to preach the futilities of evil. Likewise for each good lifer, there's likely to be one on the opposite of the spectrum, teaching his new friends how to do what they did again, but better when they're free. My point here, life imprisonment isn't exactly the end-all substitute for execution. |
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Slay Level: 25 Posts: 319/339 EXP: 85592 For next: 4028 Since: 04-28-05 From: Threshold Between Heaven and Hell Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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The Tamarin Calanis says... Try an explicitly-descriptive topic on a certain product of male anatomy while eating tapioca pudding. The Wurl 2.0 says... I don't believe our government is nearly that altruistic. It's the monetary concerns; putting someone to death is terribly costly, and that money could be much better spent lining the pockets of some undeserving politician. Slay is in Pissed w/Government mode today. The geeogree says... But you want to end his life. Doesn't the same apply to you? The Arwon says... Earth humans are naturally hateful and murderous. They play videogames that allow them to kill because they desire such in real life, but revile the consequences. Most of their lust for pain and death comes out during high-profile murder trials. "Gut the sonnovabitch!" "I'll kill 'em myself!" Such are the cries of the masses. I echo your sentiment, Arwon. I usually don't post in topics like these, nor participate in discussions like these in person, because I like to observe, to get a feel for the dispositions of those around me. As I see in those physically around me, those around these boards seem no more immune to hellbentness on bloody, torturous revenge. Aside from sticking it to the man, Slay also feels benevolent today. Just not towards the afforementioned government. The Legion says... The flat tone of this post was hilarious. The Zer0wned says... Vlad III Dracula would impale his opponents in the public square, on twelve foot long metal pikes, leaving them to die slowly in pain of such intensity as to drive a person mad. You don't die of blood loss, when impaled in such a fashion; blood clots soon enough. You die from starvation (asphixiation is also possible, in the case that one or both lungs are pierced) after days of agony. I'm sure villagers would take pot shots at you, as well, leaving you begging with all your heart for death. But did the thought of this stop anyone from opposing Vlad Tepes? No. Case in point, threatening punishment, no matter how grotesque and horrible, will not deter most criminals, because most crimes are commited spontaneously, without forethought (i.e. they don't have time to consider their punishment and let it affect their final descision -- they suddenly see criminal opportunity, and seize it, spur of the moment). As for child-bearing, most professors of child development agree that the most successful way to raise a well-behaved son or daughter is to utterly ignore them when they are doing something wrong, and praise them highly when they do good. And I do mean utterly ignore. If they ask you why you won't speak to them, you may explain that what they have done is to your displeasure, but it should be done so flatly and clearly, not harshly nor fondly. Most children are far more distressed by being ignored than they are by being scolded. In fact, attention is what most children crave more than anything. Scolding is a form of attention that they will learn to seek, if you let them. The idea is, the only attention you give them is when they're not doing anything wrong. Thus, doing something wrong nets them no attention, so they shy away from such activities in an attempt to secure attention from you. Which isn't to say criminals should go ignored, the point of this analogy is, rewarding good behavior is a far better deterrant of destructive activity than punishment of bad behavior. The Jin Dogan says... Quoted for emphasis. Heed the word of the man with the triple sevens. The Ziff says... "I don't hate the world -- the world hasn't done anything wrong; the world is perfect. It's the humans inhabiting the world that're fucked up." The Arwon says... Yes, this is a more articulate version of what I was trying to say. Besides being in a benevolent, government-despising mood today, Slay is also going on fourty hours sans sleep, which while great for abstract painting, is terrible for word...making. The Arwon says... And I maintain that most people who commit murder are unlikely to commit it again. Joe Anybody comes home early from working a twelve hour shift to find his wife with another man, whom he kills in a blind rage. Are we to assume that he is therefore murderous by nature and should automatically be locked up for the rest of his life, to "protect other people" from this "danger?" Lock him up for awhile, yes. Provide counciling and anger management, yes. Grant afforementioned wife a restraining order if she fears him, yes. Let him rot for sixty years, with nothing to do but twiddle his thumbs? No. Outright kill him, when he could be preforming some sort of productive labor during his stay? No. At least that's my opinion. The Legion says... Define "us," please. Are you talking about non-criminals in general, or just the ones who brood over ways to torture and kill the convicted? Now would be a great time to bring up the fact that upwards of 16% of those convicted of murder are, at some point, found to be innocent. But hey, what's 16 out of 100? What's 160 out of 1,000? So long as we clear the herd a bit, yes? After glancing back over what I've just wrote, I have an omnious feeling that I'll regret posting it later. Oh well, I'm not here to win the popularity contest. I stand alongside Arwon. |
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knuck Hinox Banned until 19-58-5815: trolling, flaming, spamming, being a general fucktard... Level: 62 Posts: 1592/1818 EXP: 1894574 For next: 90112 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 9 hours |
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| Slay and Arwon are kickass. <3 |
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The SomerZ Summer, yay! Level: 45 Posts: 834/862 EXP: 618182 For next: 41982 Since: 03-15-04 From: Norway Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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| Actually, if you feel that murderers and child rapists, among others, deserve a chance to live in this world than you should be ashamed of yourself. Well, yes, I do believe any person has a right to live, no matter how gruesome their actions. I was brought up to "hate the sin, but love the sinner". And you seem to have misunderstood me. What I reacted to was how you (for a large part of this discussion) discussed the financial benefits/expenditures of killing another human being. Discussing the morality of capital punishment, I have no problem with. Discussing it solely on a "what will cost me less?"-base is a lot more problematic. It's this kind of mentality that allows repeat crimes to happen. Let's not fool ourselves, people rarely change. Who you were as a young adult fundamentally is typically the person you grow up to be and the person you remain. People know it's against the law to murder and rape people. And you all suggest that we "teach" them what they already know? Please. They don't deserve to live on the same planet as us, they don't deserve to even live. I'm a dialectic, I believe everything changes (or progresses, if you will). People change, history changes, society changes. If I met the little boy that I was 10 years ago, he would probably shake his head at what I have become. The idea that nothing changes is simply absurd to me. And besides, can you kill a person before he's ever had the chance to prove to you that he has changed? Who are we to decide who lives and dies? Who are we to decide who should have a chance to succeed at life, and who should not be given a chance at fulfilling their potential? What would society become if someone decided they had the authority, and the right, to make those kinds of decisions for people? I started the topic, I feel absolutely no shame of it. I could just as easily say you should be ashamed of yourself for using shame tactics. Seriously though, individual human life is extremely overrated. You've gotta see the forest from the trees sometimes. If you have to chop down one infected tree in order to save some of the surrounding, you've done a bad thing for a good reason, that's what the basis of execution is. Execution has been abused throughout history, but pain medication regularly is abused too, that mean we're just going to stop making pain medication? I use shame-tactics? What the heck are shame-tactics? (no, you don't have to answer that, I can pretty much figure it out from the name, just never heard about it before). And the system you're describing is called utilitarianism. I'm sorry, I'm not a big fan of utilitarianism. I believe Gandhi was right when he said "I do not believe in the doctrine of the greatest good of the greatest number. The only real, dignified, human doctrine is the greatest good of all." I can't see anything good coming out of favoring the majority over the minority (no matter how small the minority is). |
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Snika Boo Level: 44  Posts: 739/916 EXP: 600678 For next: 10607 Since: 07-21-04 From: Freezing Cold Alaska! Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 2 days |
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| Its ridiculous that there must be legal actions before killing someone who has commited an awful crime, such as kill someone else. Society is just a game of make believe that complicates life itself, which is the case here. If someone is messed up enough to kill everyone in their neighborhood, then they must be 'put down' before they can spread their craziness throughout the game of make believe. That is when things become very real. Death, in a sense, is our only call back to life. The rest is just an illusion. |
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SamuraiX Paratroopa Level: 19 Posts: 67/140 EXP: 32602 For next: 3175 Since: 10-11-04 From: ^___^ Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| As Martin Luther King, Jr once said, "If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live." There shouldn't be trials, just persecution based on evidence, not how much money you have. The big time money launderers and thieves are the ones who don't up in prison, they end up in "correctional facilities." |
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Zer0wned Cheep-cheep Level: 17 Posts: 167/181 EXP: 21472 For next: 3271 Since: 08-16-05 From: Hermosa Beach, CA Since last post: 30 days Last activity: 30 days |
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| Alright, so here's an exagerrated version of what I've gathered from various people: "I don't hate the world -- the world hasn't done anything wrong; the world is perfect. It's the humans inhabiting the world that're fucked up." "My body is fine, BUT MY SHINS ARE BROKEN." Seriously, WTF? Humans are a product and a part of the world, if they're not perfect, the world isn't... Just as if the rest of your body is fine, but if your shins, being a part of your body, are broken, therefore your body isn't fine. Ziff's quote on the other hand, made a lot more sense to me. It seemed like a take on a "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" perspective. Perfection is a human concept (a flimsy one at that), one could say that occurances and existance in itself are inherently perfect, and that the only reason it's not considered to be perfect is because of the perceptions and expectations placed upon it. Then again, this kind of moots itself, because it's using that same system of perceptions and expectations upon existance and occurances  (perfection, that is).*deleted text (no more posting when I'm super tired  )*EDIT: there, better? (edited by Zer0wned on 09-30-05 01:19 PM) (edited by Zer0wned on 09-30-05 01:34 PM) (edited by Zer0wned on 09-30-05 01:38 PM) |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35 Posts: 493/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| That's a massive strawman, or perhaps a series of strawpeople, followed by a series of questions that I don't think relate to the arguments about incarceration conditions and such. Poor form. When has self-defense come into this? Why all the focus on psychotic murderers when the vast majority of prison inmates are there for much lesser crimes? |
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Zer0wned Cheep-cheep Level: 17 Posts: 168/181 EXP: 21472 For next: 3271 Since: 08-16-05 From: Hermosa Beach, CA Since last post: 30 days Last activity: 30 days |
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Meh, I did that at like 1 in the morning, I was gonna delete it just now, but it would make your post seem oddly out of context. but the "body is fine, shins are broken" thing I stick by  seriously, that quote from slay made no sense.Let's see where my mind was at the time... The bulleted text was a slightly exagerrated impression that I've been getting on a few points that have been getting made by the pacifist opposition that I don't make any sense to me, exagerrated, but still within their reasoning. Maybe not the reasoning of any one person, but more of a compilation. The question is what made me want to delete the post, I'll admit that was a bit off-topic. It was a poorly done, overly specific example. As for the focus on psychotic murderers, I think there's a tendancy to not specify one's specific topic, prison systems or death sentences, this thread was intended to cover both. Just a guess. So I'm gonna edit that previous post so it makes a little more sense, and delete that question .(edited by Zer0wned on 09-30-05 01:19 PM) |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99  Posts: 5339/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Aquinas, and many other Mediaeval philosophers held that perfect was a given constant. Perfection was, in all senses, due to the innate knowledge that all men are pre-supposed to have that God exists. Our entire concept of philosophy is, according to these philosophers, due to the idea that God is perfect therefore through this knowledge we know what perfection is. Also, Aquinas made the note that the government has only to do one thing and that is protect the inherent holiness of the family. Many misconstrue this fact to use it FOR death sentences, but that would be hypocritical as he praised the sanctity of life itself. In this regard it would be foolish to kill another as it could potentially harm an additional family unit, or even overstep the boundaries of the governmental protection of society that he outlined. That and there is the whole thing with that one of the ten commandments. Thou Shalt Not Kill. Even Hammurabi when he set down the concept of an "eye for an eye" and "vengance is mine" overlooked that bit that the Babylonians co-opted from Jewish culture. More over, Ghandi made the statement "an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind". The mob mentality that calls for lynching is too primal and out of place in a world that is supposedly civilized. Howler monkies, in many cases, seem to act more civilized than so called "humans" that rally around a man that is found to be innocent, calling for his death to end their own temporal suffering. Cutting out the religious points of this, I have little to say other than the only people to call for death of the condemned are small-minded. How exactly do the dead pay back society for their ills? |
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Snika Boo Level: 44 Posts: 740/916 EXP: 600678 For next: 10607 Since: 07-21-04 From: Freezing Cold Alaska! Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 2 days |
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Originally posted by Zer0wned If you exaggeratd everything anyone has ever said, then you'd have a false view of the world around you. |
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Zer0wned Cheep-cheep Level: 17 Posts: 172/181 EXP: 21472 For next: 3271 Since: 08-16-05 From: Hermosa Beach, CA Since last post: 30 days Last activity: 30 days |
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| If you exaggeratd everything anyone has ever said, then you'd have a false view of the world around you. Why don't you have a look through this topic and where I picked those out, you'll see how small the exaggeration is. Cutting out the religious points of this, I have little to say other than the only people to call for death of the condemned are small-minded. How exactly do the dead pay back society for their ills? Cutting out the religious bits of that is like taking the meat out of a meat sandwich, that set of statements and details of which were highly dependant on religion for the most part. I find it equally small minded to not even consider the whole opposing point that the un-repairable are better off removed to hold some form of at least semi-intelligent backing. Notice I failed to call you small minded for not agreeing with me. Not to mention that most of what you spoke of was on the topic of war, war is a little different than the justice system within a community. I see execution as a higher form of incarceration, removal of them and a removal of their living influence, preventing future incident by them via escape or by the simple passing of their knowledge and views to fellow inmates who will get out. Pay back society? Really now, people who serve life terms don't do any paying back to society, aside from maybe a little "scared straight" goodness, which I quite like the concept of, actually. If it wasn't so likely to be considered inhumane to put them to (mandatory), consistant work (lol chaingang) where they were of no danger to civilians, I'd totally drop my view on execution. Then again, it's not exactly fair to whoever's job they're taking. So what do you propose for the worst of the worst? The utterly hopelessly evil who will not or simply cannot become better, and will be willing to fake it as long as possible for freedom? With that and my pending departure I say that is probably the first topic I've ever encountered that I can easily say will never have an agreement or comprimise, that both sides can have absolutely no doubt in their mind on their point, and look like a complete fool to the opposition, no matter how civilized and understanding both parties may be. Figuring most, if not all of you were against execution, I decided to take the devil's advocacy here. As for my real stance, it's still non-existant. I was hoping to see if this would somehow aid me in genuinely picking a side, but as of yet I still haven't. All I've ended up seeing was highly opinionated, the conveyed opinions of others/quotes, attacks on small points, and philosophically fueled one-liners. No new facts, no interesting viewpoints, just me racking my brain against the rest of you, trying to bring across the point that there is some value and logic to the practice of execution, and alls I get is "killing is wrong, no," I was a little dissappointed. Oh well, fits one of my own philosophical one-liners "The moon won't dissapoint if you don't expect the world". I think I'm done here. (edited by Zer0wned on 09-30-05 10:48 PM) |
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SamuraiX Paratroopa Level: 19 Posts: 81/140 EXP: 32602 For next: 3175 Since: 10-11-04 From: ^___^ Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by alte Hexe With livers, kidnets, hearts, etc. At least don't waste the body. |
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Zer0wned Cheep-cheep Level: 17 Posts: 173/181 EXP: 21472 For next: 3271 Since: 08-16-05 From: Hermosa Beach, CA Since last post: 30 days Last activity: 30 days |
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Originally posted by SamuraiX Organ harvesting FTW! |
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