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Ramsus

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Posted on 08-19-05 03:46 PM Link | Quote
I'm having something of a dry spell at the moment when it comes to comic strip ideas, so I've been focusing on photography. However, I'm going to try easing into doing black and white comics on a regular basis. After all, every moment I spend not drawing is a moment in which my ability to draw doesn't improve.

So here we go:


The script lacks punch and is way too cliché. The backgrounds are incomplete. It could also use a few more panels of squirrel force action leading up to the big line to clear up what's happening, especially in the first squirrel panel. The last panel also has a bit too much white space. At the very least, I could've added speedlines.

More to come.
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Posted on 08-19-05 09:22 PM Link | Quote
Looks mighty fine there.
Snika

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Posted on 08-20-05 01:50 AM Link | Quote
Very nice! Your drawing style rocks. I think it would look great colored after you have finished with the final drafts.
Ramsus

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Posted on 08-20-05 02:01 AM Link | Quote
Thanks. I'm going to go for quantity though, and I don't have time for coloring them. That means these are going to be the final drafts, although the better the idea, the more drafts I'll probably do of it.

EDIT: another comic, Feral Cat



I rehashed idea from an editorial cartoon I did in March, but it ended up too much like an Azumanga Daioh kitty gag.


(edited by Ramsus on 08-19-05 07:29 PM)
Peardian

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Posted on 08-21-05 04:16 AM Link | Quote
The first one's good, but what's happening in the last frame of the second one?
fabio

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Posted on 08-21-05 07:29 AM Link | Quote
Yeah, I was wondering what happened in the last panel in the second comic. It looks like the guy got owned.
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Posted on 08-21-05 10:02 PM Link | Quote
Never, EVER, go for quantity over quality when making comics. While your lineart is very good, the jokes just aren't all that good or funny.

Try getting a writer if you ever seriously consider doing comics. It would help a lot.
Ramsus

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Posted on 08-22-05 12:41 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Cardinal Fang
Never, EVER, go for quantity over quality when making comics. While your lineart is very good, the jokes just aren't all that good or funny.

Try getting a writer if you ever seriously consider doing comics. It would help a lot.


You don't work your way out of writer's block by just sitting around until your head starts bleeding and you die.

You also can't figure out what works and what doesn't if you don't try a lot of things, even with the jokes. Besides, the magic difference between what you see here and what you see with great comics is that the ideas for great comics came from pools of less great ideas that were edited down until the best idea remained.

So never, EVER, give that advice again to anyone who's just exploring ideas and working on art skills (aka PRACTICING). It's counterproductive.
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Posted on 08-22-05 01:58 AM Link | Quote
The only thing I really had issues with were the text in general, especially when dealing with some of the smaller font sizes. Course, when I viewed it at 200% it looked a little better.

Only thing otherwise would be in the second one where trying to determine if the first panel on the left was one or two. Considering the dividing line really isn't bolded at all it took me a few times to realize that they're two seperate panels, not one.

Otherwise, superb art. I really can't say anything bad about that.
Peardian

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Posted on 08-22-05 02:05 AM Link | Quote
This is a really stupid question, but does the cat explode?
Snika

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Posted on 08-22-05 02:31 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Cardinal Fang
Never, EVER, go for quantity over quality when making comics. While your lineart is very good, the jokes just aren't all that good or funny.

Try getting a writer if you ever seriously consider doing comics. It would help a lot.


Whenever I tried to do comics, I had the same problem... Except my art also sucked.

I think Ramsus is right in trying new things, even if the jokes aren't funny. Pretty soon he's bound to hit on something gold and take off with it.
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Posted on 08-22-05 03:14 AM Link | Quote
+5 for the Star Wars allusion.
Ramsus

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Posted on 08-22-05 04:27 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Peardian
This is a really stupid question, but does the cat explode?


Yeah, I looked at it again ten minutes after finishing it and asked myself the same question. I think it works better for jokes like that if you just skip the action, meaning the last panel should really be just a scratched up guy looking shocked with no cat in sight.
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Posted on 08-22-05 04:51 AM Link | Quote
Ramsus and I are pretty alike... Can make great art but cannot think of a story.
Teddylot
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Posted on 08-22-05 08:19 AM Link | Quote
If you want to get better, then you need constructive criticism ... thus, me.

Alright, I'll do this one comic at a time 'cause I have a lot to say. (Note: This is actually a good thing, since I don't comment on hopeless cases. =P )

Comic Number One:

Your lineart is alright ... but only half of the time. It seems to me that you're not putting in the same amount of effort in the second half of the strip as you are in the first half, where the main subjects are much cleaner and more recognizable. The squirrels don't stand out, ending up blending in with the background. The entire second half of the page looks like a sketch. Very unclean and very unfinished.

The comic is also missing a key artistic principal. That is, when an object is closer to the viewer, its details are very prominent and the lineart is generally thicker than the subjects further away from the viewer. So the tree in the first panel should be more prominent than the general background and the subjects. Of course, you wouldn't want to take away the emphasis you have on the subjects. (Let's say we're working without word balloons at the moment because they generally act as focal pointers. =P )
So, you'd want to dilute the foreground while still sticking to your perspective rules. There's a photography trick to this called a "short depth of field," where there's an object on the field that isn't in focus. In your case, you'd want to focus on only your subjects and not the foreground. Unless you use a few photoshop tricks or color, there's no way to keep the foreground out of focus; thus, you use grey tones. You know them, you love them, you see them in manga all the time. When you apply grey tones to the foreground and the background, the focal point ends up being the pure white of your subjects. Ta-da. Simple solution.

Grey tones are also useful to making your artwork more interesting. Your lineart is boring and ends up being a real turn off to the reader. One point of comics is to use the artwork to attract readers. Unfortunaely, yours doesn't do just that. Cleaning up your lineart, giving it a more professional look, more contrast, and better storytelling will fix that right up quick. Of course, this look comes from more practice and study of other kinds of art forms, drawing styles, and great storytellers. I'm doing that myself, actually ...

Next topic: the writing. Needs work. >.< The joke is dreadfully old, predictable, and has been abused to a point where it, even with a new twist, will get a seriously annoyed groan from me on a bad day. On a good day, I'd just gleefully numb my mind and pretend like it never happened. =o

Like you practice drawing, you should also intensive writing practice. Don't stop at just one punchline; come up with a dozen, then pick the funniest. Try to come up with your own funny and not somebody else's. If "teh funny" isn't your thing and you fail hard at it, try out some sort of amazing adventure tale with a great bunch of characters that people can really get attached to. Remember to try and come up with original stuff. This also comes with practice, so you ought to not only draw daily, but to write daily as well.

Or you could hire a writer.

My contact number is in my profile.

Don't rule out your idea just yet 'cause even a bad idea can be saved with some good execution, good storytelling. Storytelling is basically how you present your comic ... umm, much like how a producer/director presents a movie. It helps make the comic interesting and it also gives the writing some sort of flow.

Let's take the first panel as an example. Why would the boy wonder what it would be like to be a squirrel? Maybe he saw one in your little foreground tree I talked about so much. So maybe you'd want to extend the panel so that it'd include another squirrely subject. It looks like any other normal squirrel, running around on the branch, and it's just enough to get the kid to ask the question.

Furthermore, let's nullify that time box you have up there. Let's extend the branch and have the question-instigating squirrel running into battle with the dreaded Darth Squirrel. Add on to the cooler looking fight scene you have going on ... extend it out if you want a longer comic or keep it simple. Blah blah blah ...

Storytelling is also the viewpoints you offer the reader and is key to making the comic more readable and interesting. I've taken two courses in photography, and it has definitely given me a lot of experience in setting up a scene. I take the principals I learn from the classes and apply them to my own comic storytelling. Reader perspective is something you gain from a class like photography. Giving you the ability to pick out the interesting from the boring and be able to draw an "active" panel. Those last three panels really need the creative juice. The third panel is supposed to look menacing; the fourth panel shouldn't just be our super squirrel, but should also have Darth Squirrel in there as he is part of the action; and the last panel, in the pure art of parody, should take on a same angle of the real shot in the Star Wars movie.

That's all for now.

I'll get to your second comic later ... and when I say later, I mean never. So you'll have to bribe or blackmail or beat me badly enough to get the second critique out of me. Good luck.

Note: Don't give up. It at least has something going for it, and that is ... the characters in the first panels. =O

*dead*
Ramsus

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Posted on 08-22-05 10:13 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Teddylot
If you want to get better, then you need constructive criticism ... thus, me.

Alright, I'll do this one comic at a time 'cause I have a lot to say. (Note: This is actually a good thing, since I don't comment on hopeless cases. =P )

Comic Number One:

Your lineart is alright ... but only half of the time. It seems to me that you're not putting in the same amount of effort in the second half of the strip as you are in the first half, where the main subjects are much cleaner and more recognizable. The squirrels don't stand out, ending up blending in with the background. The entire second half of the page looks like a sketch. Very unclean and very unfinished.

The comic is also missing a key artistic principal. That is, when an object is closer to the viewer, its details are very prominent and the lineart is generally thicker than the subjects further away from the viewer. So the tree in the first panel should be more prominent than the general background and the subjects. Of course, you wouldn't want to take away the emphasis you have on the subjects. (Let's say we're working without word balloons at the moment because they generally act as focal pointers. =P )
So, you'd want to dilute the foreground while still sticking to your perspective rules. There's a photography trick to this called a "short depth of field," where there's an object on the field that isn't in focus. In your case, you'd want to focus on only your subjects and not the foreground. Unless you use a few photoshop tricks or color, there's no way to keep the foreground out of focus; thus, you use grey tones. You know them, you love them, you see them in manga all the time. When you apply grey tones to the foreground and the background, the focal point ends up being the pure white of your subjects. Ta-da. Simple solution.

Grey tones are also useful to making your artwork more interesting. Your lineart is boring and ends up being a real turn off to the reader. One point of comics is to use the artwork to attract readers. Unfortunaely, yours doesn't do just that. Cleaning up your lineart, giving it a more professional look, more contrast, and better storytelling will fix that right up quick. Of course, this look comes from more practice and study of other kinds of art forms, drawing styles, and great storytellers. I'm doing that myself, actually ...

Next topic: the writing. Needs work. >.< The joke is dreadfully old, predictable, and has been abused to a point where it, even with a new twist, will get a seriously annoyed groan from me on a bad day. On a good day, I'd just gleefully numb my mind and pretend like it never happened. =o

Like you practice drawing, you should also intensive writing practice. Don't stop at just one punchline; come up with a dozen, then pick the funniest. Try to come up with your own funny and not somebody else's. If "teh funny" isn't your thing and you fail hard at it, try out some sort of amazing adventure tale with a great bunch of characters that people can really get attached to. Remember to try and come up with original stuff. This also comes with practice, so you ought to not only draw daily, but to write daily as well.

Or you could hire a writer.

My contact number is in my profile.

Don't rule out your idea just yet 'cause even a bad idea can be saved with some good execution, good storytelling. Storytelling is basically how you present your comic ... umm, much like how a producer/director presents a movie. It helps make the comic interesting and it also gives the writing some sort of flow.

Let's take the first panel as an example. Why would the boy wonder what it would be like to be a squirrel? Maybe he saw one in your little foreground tree I talked about so much. So maybe you'd want to extend the panel so that it'd include another squirrely subject. It looks like any other normal squirrel, running around on the branch, and it's just enough to get the kid to ask the question.

Furthermore, let's nullify that time box you have up there. Let's extend the branch and have the question-instigating squirrel running into battle with the dreaded Darth Squirrel. Add on to the cooler looking fight scene you have going on ... extend it out if you want a longer comic or keep it simple. Blah blah blah ...

Storytelling is also the viewpoints you offer the reader and is key to making the comic more readable and interesting. I've taken two courses in photography, and it has definitely given me a lot of experience in setting up a scene. I take the principals I learn from the classes and apply them to my own comic storytelling. Reader perspective is something you gain from a class like photography. Giving you the ability to pick out the interesting from the boring and be able to draw an "active" panel. Those last three panels really need the creative juice. The third panel is supposed to look menacing; the fourth panel shouldn't just be our super squirrel, but should also have Darth Squirrel in there as he is part of the action; and the last panel, in the pure art of parody, should take on a same angle of the real shot in the Star Wars movie.

That's all for now.

I'll get to your second comic later ... and when I say later, I mean never. So you'll have to bribe or blackmail or beat me badly enough to get the second critique out of me. Good luck.

Note: Don't give up. It at least has something going for it, and that is ... the characters in the first panels. =O

*dead*


Nice, but next time use bulleted lists and separate your major points more. With that much information, it'd be a lot easier to digest.
Snika

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Posted on 08-22-05 10:16 AM Link | Quote
Well... Thats a weird response, Ramsus. He was trying to help you out.
Ramsus

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Posted on 08-22-05 10:49 AM Link | Quote
Eh? I wasn't being sarcastic or anything, it's just really long and makes a lot of good points that would be easier to absorb if they were outlined or something.

@ Teddylot:

There, I finally finished actually reading and absorbing all of that (I just finished giving twenty different five minute speeches to what totals over a thousand people about five hours ago, which sucks if you're not the most outgoing person in the world). I'm on a tight schedule for now, so I can't take any more long critiques like that from anyone. As such, I'm definitely putting this to as much use as I possibly can.

Anyway, I noticed how you went straight at me for doing a half-assed, rush job on everything, especially as I get near the end (I had friend last year who did art and used to go at me for the same reason whenever I asked him for a critique, and it never bothered me. In fact, it just made me embarrassed that I didn't put more effort into it, work on it some more, and get another critique).

I'm applying for a cartoonist position for a University sponsored, student run website, and I really needed to get something to the content editor, so I rushed a few comics with the first ideas I could come up with, spending about an hour or so to actually rough and do lineart for each comic, then an half an hour to scan, letter, and add boxes.

There isn't a lot of interest in the position and I just found out about it kind of late, so time is more important right now. It'd be for a weekly cartoon, so I'd have a lot more time to work on ideas, flesh them out, and finish the line art.

Also, I just got out of a really boring summer, and so life seems really dull and I have a horrible case of writer's block for it. School is starting up though, so I'm starting to get more and more ideas that I can work with.

Excuses aside, it was very helpful and encouraging. I'm a bit ashamed and sorry that I didn't try to do my best work, since such good critiques don't come often online. That's why I'd never ask you to critique the second comic (the thought would never even have occurred to me if you hadn't mentioned it).

I definitely have no problem with exploring other media though. Sure I've mostly focused on sketching/drawing and (really amateur) photography, but I'm finally going to be taking art classes at my University. I'm trying to get over my shyness of taking pictures of people I don't know, so I can do more interesting shots that tell stories about events and stuff on campus.

I also spend a lot of time thinking about movies and how they're shot, coming up with ideas and how I'd set them up, and using those in other things like comics. Mostly because I love movies and the idea of making movies.

Just a few quick comments though. I get the depth of field concept, but wouldn't using a flash to highlight things on an overcast day be more like the effect I'd be aiming for with grey tones? Just yelling "negative space" at me works too.

I told myself the tree stood out too much, but it was what I wanted to use as a link between the squirrels to the two guys talking, with more of an overhead view in a few of the squirrel panels showing the two guys below (maybe the second panel should be a worm's eye perspective into the tree, with the guys to the side and some squirrel ruckus above.). I got lazy after I roughed a few squirrels and just inked over it though.

I want to really avoid tones for this project though, so I'll try to figure out how to make the foreground and background into negative space without using gray tones, to keep the focus on the subject. Maybe I'll just avoid foregrounds when they're too distracting. (any extra tips/advice here?)

Anyway, the only thing I'd really like to ask of you is that if I get the position and keep this up, check this thread every few months and comment when you've found something you don't need to really critique.

Finally, thanks for all of that. Sorry if you think I was rude with my earlier reply, since I didn't mean to be at all. It's just a lot more than I was expecting and have time for these days. I actually wouldn't have time this week to look at it if I wasn't having a slight case of insomnia, and it'd be a waste not to. But hey, look at me, I'm writing an even longer reply myself, so nevermind about that.


(edited by Ramsus on 08-22-05 05:16 AM)
(edited by Ramsus on 08-22-05 05:17 AM)
(edited by Ramsus on 08-22-05 05:17 AM)
(edited by Ramsus on 08-22-05 05:27 AM)
(edited by Ramsus on 08-22-05 05:30 AM)
Teddylot
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Posted on 08-28-05 06:37 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Ramsus

I'm applying for a cartoonist position for a University sponsored, student run website, and I really needed to get something to the content editor, so I rushed a few comics with the first ideas I could come up with, spending about an hour or so to actually rough and do lineart for each comic, then an half an hour to scan, letter, and add boxes.

You really shouldn't be sending in rough, unfinished comics to a content editor if you want a cartoonist position ... even if you're in a hurry. They want to see your very best because your best will be competing with the best of others. Chances are that your worst won't stand out much. Sooooooo ... finish and perfect the comics before sending them in. ((Editors don't like excuses. *nods*))


Excuses aside, it was very helpful and encouraging. I'm a bit ashamed and sorry that I didn't try to do my best work, since such good critiques don't come often online. That's why I'd never ask you to critique the second comic (the thought would never even have occurred to me if you hadn't mentioned it).

I want to, actually.


Just a few quick comments though. I get the depth of field concept, but wouldn't using a flash to highlight things on an overcast day be more like the effect I'd be aiming for with grey tones? Just yelling "negative space" at me works too.

I don't use flash with black and white photography, so I'm kind of in the dark here. But yes, negative space was my point.


I want to really avoid tones for this project though, so I'll try to figure out how to make the foreground and background into negative space without using gray tones, to keep the focus on the subject. Maybe I'll just avoid foregrounds when they're too distracting. (any extra tips/advice here?)

There isn't anything wrong with using tones in a newspaper comic, but I digress. Anyway, what can be done with tones can be imitated with ink. Shade the tree. Hatching, cross-hatching, whatever you want. You could also take the easy way out and move around the perspective, but I don't suggest this because it's bad for an artist.


Anyway, the only thing I'd really like to ask of you is that if I get the position and keep this up, check this thread every few months and comment when you've found something you don't need to really critique.

Sure ... I don't mind.
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