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1 user currently in Rom Hacking:  hukka |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - Custom Palettes: Good vs Bad |
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Dr. Mario Bot Level: 26  Posts: 226/262 EXP: 99225 For next: 3050 Since: 05-04-04 Since last post: 53 min. Last activity: 41 min. |
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You know, I really learned my lesson in all of this. I mean look at how much better my hack looks with a default palette: I mean I was an idiot for approaching a hack from an artistic point of view, this makes the game a lot better. Artistic ideas have no place in rom hacking! I was a jerk to cheat myself and everyone else by spending a good half hour deciding what value of brown would be the best on the eyes. Oh and also! Look what I discovered in my custom palette! I opened it up in YY-CHR and something very odd showed up....  Man... I really dodged a bullet there. (edited by Dr. Mario on 07-25-05 08:47 PM) |
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Kefka Indefinitely Unbanned Level: 81 Posts: 3291/3392 EXP: 4826208 For next: 166641 Since: 03-15-04 From: Pomona, CALIFORNIA BABY! Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| hahahahahah! This feud is so ridiculous and childish, it's funny. I think what Disch is saying is that when you negate the limitations of the NES, it is no longer the NES. And Dr. Mario seems to say that custom palettes make a game look better. Why can't BOTH be right? |
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Dr. Mario Bot Level: 26 Posts: 227/262 EXP: 99225 For next: 3050 Since: 05-04-04 Since last post: 53 min. Last activity: 41 min. |
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| Actually Kefka... That's what I want lol I don't think that custom palettes are always right, it's like everything else, when used correctly and with good reason it can be an excellent tool. Overusing a custom palette can be a terrible thing, but in this case I feel that it was a decent move artistically. Not saying you can't make an awesome hack without it though, look at my first CV hack, or Dude Man's upcoming Metroid hack, I think the GFX in those are both excellent. I just felt that I could push the GFX in this hack a litle bit more, and make it more the way I wanted it to look. I don't hate things that don't use custom palettes, that's just stupid, but sometimes they can definately be a good thing. | |||
KP9000 Flurry Level: 27  Posts: 252/261 EXP: 102741 For next: 13418 Since: 03-18-04 From: Wherever you saw me last... Since last post: 22 days Last activity: 2 days |
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Originally posted by Kefka IF Disch means what Kefka thinks he means, then that makes Disch a hypocrite. Xtreme NES thingy That's not negating any of the NES stuff? |
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa  Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45  Posts: 745/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| That was sarcasm and he did it to prove a point. You can make anything possible on an NES emulator by abusing it's bugs, but that takes the thrill out of ROM Hacking. I personally created Mario Adventure and I made use of an emulator bug, rendering it invalid really and thus I'm a bit ashamed that I let it go like that. Because if you use a custom palette, you may as well do artwork in MS Paint. | |||
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Dr. Mario Bot Level: 26 Posts: 229/262 EXP: 99225 For next: 3050 Since: 05-04-04 Since last post: 53 min. Last activity: 41 min. |
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| You ever see some of the stuff that's been done in MS-Paint? It's acutally quite remakable. So I guess my point is that, while something might not be so agreeable with everyone else, it still has some potential to do some good stuff. Well that and, it's all art whether you like it or not, so it's best to leave the comments constructive, and accept the fact that it takes different strokes. **Edit** Actually I have more to say, because this whole arguement is stupid. This is a hobby that none of us should REALLY be able to do in the first place, and I think sometimes we get a little to serious about it and sort of take all of this for granted. When a hobby gets to the point where people are having opposing views of Art Vs. Technology, don't you think it's going a little far? Besides, I'm saying right now, if anyone else makes one more comment about this whole mess (because that's what it is) Then I'm going to request that this thread gets closed, and I'll just start a new one. This thread is for a rom hack, not something this pointless. (edited by Dr. Mario on 07-25-05 10:36 PM) |
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45 Posts: 746/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| Then in that case, this belongs in the Art forum, not ROM Hacking.... | |||
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Dr. Mario Bot Level: 26 Posts: 230/262 EXP: 99225 For next: 3050 Since: 05-04-04 Since last post: 53 min. Last activity: 41 min. |
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| Think what you want DD, but I just made my point about this whole thing clear, and I'll stick to my guns. | |||
Dish Spiny Level: 38 Posts: 467/596 EXP: 355646 For next: 14801 Since: 03-15-04 From: Disch Since last post: 18 days Last activity: 18 days |
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| Well sarcasm and assholishness didn't really help my argument (though it did give me a chuckle). And I see KP9000 couldn't have misunderstood my point any more than he did.. so let me try and be more clear: Relying on an emu-specific feature to better your hack is counterproductive and detrimental. Targetting a specific emu or a set of emus not only limits the user from choosing their own emu to use, but also forces emulators to maintain support for a feature that not only may become defunct and unnecessary, but also inaccurate (effectively breaking the emu in order to support your broken game). It's bad for you (less people get to play your hack) It's bad for your audience (their choise of emu is limited) It's bad for emulation as a whole (broken ROMs cause emu authors to have to add tweaks or 'rule bending techniques' in order to support them) How many of you would give an NES hack the time of day if you had to use NESticle to play it? Not many I'll bet. The underlying truth that you can ALWAYS fall back on when hacking NES games is that they're made to be played on the NES. If your game is built to run on an NES it will not only work properly in an NES but will also work in EVERY NES emu. Whether it be relying on an emu bug like DD's MA... storing code in SRAM via a savestate so you don't have to find free space in the ROM... or using a custom palette -- they all are poor practices because they all break the game. Like I said... when you target the NES (which is only natural considering it's an NES game), all these problems are avoided and the game will work on ANY emu... REGARDLESS of the features it supports. It's win-win. On a somewhat related note .... I found it rather ironic that people made note of Dr. Mario's talent, then turned around and said his graphics would look like crap because of the NES's limitations. Wouldn't that indicate a lack of talent?  Don't get me wrong -- Dr. Mario is a good artist and I like his work -- I just thought that argument was funny because it was self-destructive.Anyway -- I'm not really against custom palettes so much as I am against broken games. If your game will look more or less the same (but not quite as good) without a custom palette that's one thing. If your game NEEDS the custom palette that's another. For example, you might want to make a custom palette which deepens the colors and makes them more rich. I would support something like that -- while it wouldn't look quite the same on the NES it would still work -- and it would still be pretty much the same. But using the extra blacks in the NES palette just doesn't fly. It might seem like I'm making a mountain out of a mole-hill... but I've had first hand experience when trying to emulate broken games (or broken rips) -- and it's better all around if people just follow the fucking rules rather than expecting emu authors to twist and turn to support your game that doesn't work. It's hard enough to support the real system in full. (edited by Disch on 07-25-05 11:14 PM) |
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Celice Keese Level: 16  Posts: 47/128 EXP: 17573 For next: 2683 Since: 06-08-05 From: Oroville, CA Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| "Anyway -- I'm not really against custom palettes so much as I am against broken games. If your game will look more or less the same (but not quite as good) without a custom palette that's one thing. If your game NEEDS the custom palette that's another. For example, you might want to make a custom palette which deepens the colors and makes them more rich. I would support something like that -- while it wouldn't look quite the same on the NES it would still work -- and it would still be pretty much the same. But using the extra blacks in the NES palette just doesn't fly." That's my reasoning. Which is why I'm using BMF's pallete. I just wanted to add a slightly different hue to it, to sortarefelct the mood of my hack. |
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BMF98567 BLACK HAS BUILT A SILLY DICE-MAZE! GO! Current list of BURNING FURY >8( recipients: - Yiffy Kitten (x2) - Xkeeper Level: 53  Posts: 1006/1261 EXP: 1094149 For next: 62970 Since: 03-15-04 From: Blobaria Special Move: Rising Meatloaf Backhand Combo Since last post: 21 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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Originally posted by CeliceEh? My palette is an attempt to accurately recreate the NES's colors, so it really doesn't count. Unless you're saying you modified it... |
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Dragonsbrethren Octorok Level: 10 Posts: 13/31 EXP: 4111 For next: 303 Since: 04-14-04 From: New Jersey Since last post: 82 days Last activity: 82 days |
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| This is the reason I gave up custom palettes (Anyone remember CV Retold 1.1? *shudders*). I found a place where someone would put my hacks onto the actual NES cartridges. Now, why would I want something I couldn't play on the real thing? You can say you don't have to resources to make the cart but remember two things: 1. Other people do, and may want to play your hack on the real thing. 2. NES flashcart technology is coming along nicely. While I no longer have a link (Site is moving) they were having an interesting discussion at Tototek.com's forums, there's a working prototype that can mimic a large amount of mappers, the only problem is the cost (Over $300.00). Uncommon mappers will be omitted to get cost down, and with any luck it'll be sold for about $100.00. I don't really like the fact that mappers will be omited but as long as it's the ones only used by multicarts and pirates I really don't care. |
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Dr. Mario Bot Level: 26 Posts: 232/262 EXP: 99225 For next: 3050 Since: 05-04-04 Since last post: 53 min. Last activity: 41 min. |
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Originally posted by Disch No offense or anything... but I didn't realize that there is a set of rules when it comes to Rom hacks, I mean I guess I missed that memo. Could someome please close and trash this thread so I can make a new one that isn't filled with all of this crap? (edited by Dr. Mario on 07-26-05 09:35 AM) |
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Apophis Red Super Koopa Level: 45 Posts: 640/882 EXP: 640255 For next: 19909 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 15 hours Last activity: 15 hours |
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| You are an idiot. The goal of emulation is perfectly mimic the original hardware (look up emulate in the dictionary.) Using a custom palette makes it show colors the NES cannot show. For this reason it is not a true rom nor true emulation. | |||
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Dr. Mario Bot Level: 26 Posts: 233/262 EXP: 99225 For next: 3050 Since: 05-04-04 Since last post: 53 min. Last activity: 41 min. |
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| Yeah, I'm a fucking moron. How about this? Maybe we can all stop being a bunch of idiots and post on-topic in this thread for once, at least then maybe I won't have to make a third thread for this hack (first one was buried a while ago...) If you want to continue this discussion MAKE ANOTHER THREAD. Keep it out of mine. (edited by Dr. Mario on 07-26-05 10:08 AM) |
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Dish Spiny Level: 38 Posts: 471/596 EXP: 355646 For next: 14801 Since: 03-15-04 From: Disch Since last post: 18 days Last activity: 18 days |
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Originally posted by Dr. Mario The set of rules is obeying the boundaries of the system. You'd think it'd be common sense that if you're making an NES hack it would have to run on the NES. I mean that's what the name implies. You said yourself you don't care how it runs on the NES -- therefore you were breaking the rules. While you may never actually see the hack on the actual system -- the point still remains that if it runs as expected on the system, it will run as expected on every emulator since every emulator is trying to emulate the system. Therefore the operation of the real thing is the one and only rule when it comes to emulation. If my prior post and this post hasn't made that clear to you, then I'm afraid I've failed and you are doomed to spread countless broken ROMs across a community which already has way too many broken ROMs to deal with. If that's really your goal, then I suppose I can't stop you. |
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Dr. Mario Bot Level: 26 Posts: 234/262 EXP: 99225 For next: 3050 Since: 05-04-04 Since last post: 53 min. Last activity: 41 min. |
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| It still doesn't change the fact that this is all opinion. Neither of us are wrong on a larger scope, now seriously, I'd really fucking appreciate it if one of two things happened: 1)The whole thing is dropped 2)It's moved to another thread 95% of this thread is full of a pretty stupid debate, and I'd really apprecate it, and I mean REALLY appreciate it, if it could stop now. |
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45 Posts: 751/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| How about I change this thread title and let Dr. Mario make a repost about his hack. We can keep this debate in here and keep it out of his hack thread. Everyone wins. | |||
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Dish Spiny Level: 38 Posts: 472/596 EXP: 355646 For next: 14801 Since: 03-15-04 From: Disch Since last post: 18 days Last activity: 18 days |
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Originally posted by Dr. Mario The thing is... I'm arguing the fact of the matter. Not my opinion. If a game does not run as expected on an NES -- how can you call it an NES game? If a game originally runs on an NES, but after you apply your IPS patch, it no longer operates properly... how can you call that anything but "broken"? You can justify it with things like "artistic liscence" or the like -- but it comes down to common sense. For it to be an NES game, it must run on the NES. That's kind of the definition. EDIT -- reworded first line to sound less arrogant (edited by Disch on 07-26-05 01:15 PM) |
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Bit-Blade Pixel Artist Level: 34  Posts: 317/445 EXP: 229264 For next: 24387 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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| Hey doc, I should really send you my hack. If you are making two versions, one with your own custom palette and one without, don't try to reproduce what your palette looks like with the nes one. The trick is to just make it look good with different colors, since you will almost always fall over on your face trying to make a poor mimicry of it. Otherwise you'll just end up pulling your hair out with how shitty it looks. |
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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - Custom Palettes: Good vs Bad |
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