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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Separation of church and state. |
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drjayphd Beamos What's that spell? pimp! Level: 56  Posts: 1176/1477 EXP: 1387410 For next: 10766 Since: 03-15-04 From: CT Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by KefkaOriginally posted by Mr. Monday Bold, italics, and underline added by me.  (edited by drjayphd on 07-17-05 05:25 PM) |
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ziratha Ninji Level: 24 Posts: 163/231 EXP: 77808 For next: 317 Since: 06-29-04 Since last post: 4 days Last activity: 17 days |
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| humm, there is nothing wrong with a seperation of church and state, however, there is a big difference between keeping religion out of the government and denying that relgion exists at all. What we have now is something the founding fathres most obviously didn't want, If you dont believe me, look at some of the laws that the existed in early america. teachers must declare faith in god to be allowed to teach. Prayer in school. the pleadge of allegiance. etc. all declared wrongful by the courts. Way i see it, we have the courts stretching that initial idea to eliminate the very idea of religion from anyone or thing that has anything to do with the government. Anyway, as for what some of you said, people are indeed not being allowed to pray at schools, for example, one kid was told he was breaking the law when he prayedc quietly to himself. Another kid was told the police would be called if he continued. The fact is, people are willfully ignorant on what is allowed and what is not, if I were in school, and wanted to pray, if they told me some bull like this, i would continue and let them try to stop me. i would sue them should they do anything stupid to stop me. |
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Slay Level: 25 Posts: 243/339 EXP: 85592 For next: 4028 Since: 04-28-05 From: Threshold Between Heaven and Hell Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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The ziratha says... Wise words, ziratha. We must also recognize that prayer is not necessarily linked to religion, and certainly it should not be automatically assumed to be linked with Christianity, as it often is. Prayer can simply be an offering of spiritual acknolwedgement, or simply of praise. I personally pray before eating meat, or other animal products. Not to any god, and not in a religious way; I simply offer my deeply sincere gratitude to these creatures whose lives I must end in order to continue my own. I am offended when someone sees me clasping my hands or bowing my head, and automatically assumes that I must be praying to the Christian god. |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35  Posts: 366/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| People in America put their constitution on too high a pedistal. | |||
DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa  Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45  Posts: 719/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| People of America put their religion on a higher pedistal than their Constitution. I'm willing to bet the majority of America would rather have Christianity as the official religion of the United States, but the Constitution, thankfully, prevents that. The First amendment prevents absolutely no one from praying in schools. It prevents the school from holding an organized prayer. This isn't a crack down on Christianity like some would like to think. If you allow school organized prayers, you have to have organized prayers for every religion. If you have the 10 Commandments in a courthouse, you must have the Qaran right next to it. It's either no religion, or all religions. The government cannot play favorites with religion and that's all the first amendment says. You can worship the fungus growing between your grandmother's toes, and the government can't do a thing to stop you (but that doesn't mean your grandma can't). (edited by DahrkDaiz on 07-18-05 08:12 AM) |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35 Posts: 369/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| But like I said earlier, despite the uberreligious population the paradox is that the US is really really secular. Hence the conflict. I mean, Australia's a far less religious place than the US (Hillsong nonwithstanding...), as is the UK, but in both countries public schools often have scripture or religion classes and while everyone thinks they're stupid, no-one really cares. Hell, our head of state the Queen is actually the figurehead of a religion. Separation of church and state in both countries basically consists of putting the church in funny hats so no-one takes it seriously. |
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Grey the Stampede Don't mess with powers you don't understand. And yes. That means donuts. Level: 82  Posts: 2751/3770 EXP: 5192909 For next: 16318 Since: 06-17-04 From: Kingston, RI, USA, Earth Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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Originally posted by Kefka .......I just corrected his grammar and added in question marks where they were supposed to be. |
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ClockExplosion Red Goomba Level: 10  Posts: 25/46 EXP: 3573 For next: 841 Since: 06-24-05 From: Fort Worth, Tejas Since last post: 78 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| A division of church and state is almost mandatory in any government (besides a fanatical one). That way, the interests of the church leaders don't get tangled in the interest of state leaders. However, in a democracy, this represents a small problem. You will have the Church leaders voting, and when there are leaders, there are church members. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99  Posts: 4719/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| If church leaders want to unduly influence the government, then the government should be allowed to set forward principles of honesty, integrity and safety of what they are teaching their congregation. :o I mean, it's only fair. |
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geeogree Bloober Level: 34  Posts: 386/448 EXP: 231583 For next: 22068 Since: 03-16-04 From: Calgary, Canada Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 11 hours |
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| yeah, I just have to say... Freedom OF Religion.... not Freedom FROM Religion |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4721/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| If people want freedom of religion, then on the flip-side people should equally expect freedom FROM religion. Like I said, if the religions want to force themselves upon everyone, irrespective of an individuals views...Then they should be forced to have a secular adjudicator to overlook all activity and a publically oppointed ethics commisioner. If I'm free in this country to worship as a Catholic or whatever, I should be able to live free from whatever I may wish to worship, too., |
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Kefka Indefinitely Unbanned Level: 81 Posts: 3268/3392 EXP: 4826208 For next: 166641 Since: 03-15-04 From: Pomona, CALIFORNIA BABY! Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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Originally posted by drjayphdOriginally posted by KefkaOriginally posted by Mr. Monday Screw you, hipster  |
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drjayphd Beamos What's that spell? pimp! Level: 56 Posts: 1183/1477 EXP: 1387410 For next: 10766 Since: 03-15-04 From: CT Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by KefkaOriginally posted by drjayphdOriginally posted by KefkaOriginally posted by Mr. Monday Jesus and I love you too. :> |
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geeogree Bloober Level: 34 Posts: 387/448 EXP: 231583 For next: 22068 Since: 03-16-04 From: Calgary, Canada Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 11 hours |
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| Ziff: people should be free to worship how, where and what they may.... and to try and force religion upon anyone is really stupid in general... as for the 10 commandments.... sure, why not just rip every religious thing that has ever been put anywhere in this country out of the ground and put it in a warehouse... then no one has to see anything and we can all live happily ever after! |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4730/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| But those weren't there for 200 years, they were put there in spite of protests |
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geeogree Bloober Level: 34 Posts: 389/448 EXP: 231583 For next: 22068 Since: 03-16-04 From: Calgary, Canada Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 11 hours |
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| The protest of what.... 5% of the population? I'm sorry.... but I just don't see why the majority Christian population of the US or Canada are supposed to bend over backwards because the minority doesn't like our values |
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Tamarin Calanis We exist. Earth exists. The universe exists. Do we really need to know why? Level: 59 Posts: 683/1802 EXP: 1672751 For next: 377 Since: 07-12-04 From: The gas station on the corner... Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 5 hours |
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| Stop acting like you're being oppressed, Geeo. Seriously, I'm fucking sick of seeing it from Christians. You want to see religious groups that actually might have a good reason to complain? How about pagans, who are still misunderstood now and still labelled by many as 'evil'? Or muslims, who have to deal with the news emphasizing "Islamic extremists"? Or maybe atheists (who aren't religious at all, but it fits with the subject), who have to deal every single fucking day with Christians trying to convert them? Oh, the list goes on, but I'm gonna stop before I get pissed. |
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Skreename Koopa Level: 18 Posts: 72/107 EXP: 27049 For next: 2848 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 3 hours |
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| Now then... What would happen if the Satanic Verses were posted in a courthouse? How long would it be before they were removed? And why the Ten Commandments over, say, Hammurabi's Code? Justinian's? Both are rather inoffensive examples of early law, and don't attempt to prosecute thought-crimes. Either way, the government is supposed to be EXCLUSIVELY secular. Not the religion of the majority. Individuals, even teachers, judges, etc. are allowed to keep their religion--on their own time. If they start saying or doing things in their official capacity as a teacher, judge, etc. is when they start causing trouble. (I'm from Virginia... The "moment of thought" we had in the morning was emphasized as being for whatever was necessary to be done... Prayer was allowed, as was meditation, relaxation, etc. I happened to use it for homework, but that's not entirely relevent.) |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35 Posts: 381/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| Haha, wasn't the Satanic Verses that book by Salman Rushdie? I can only assume what'd happen is that someone'd issue a fatwa on the courthouse. |
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Reshaper256 Bee Level: 19  Posts: 127/143 EXP: 34776 For next: 1001 Since: 09-14-04 From: United States Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 9 hours |
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Originally posted by geeogree It's no one's right to force their religion on someone else, and that's the very point of separation of church and state. Children and students have to go to school and people often have to go to court. When the government starts supporting a certain religion, it demeans the opinions and choices of those who don't believe that way. People have the right to be wrong, and to believe something that (edited by Reshaper256 on 07-27-05 08:57 PM) (edited by Reshaper256 on 07-27-05 09:02 PM) |
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