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1 user currently in Super Mario World hacking:  labmaster |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Super Mario World hacking - Kyouji's principles of good level design (and therefore good hacks) |
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Alastor the Stylish Hey! I made a cool game! It's called "I poisoned half the food, so if you eat you might die!" Have a taco.  Level: 114  Posts: 5883/7620 EXP: 16258468 For next: 51099 Since: 03-15-04 From: Oregon, US Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Note the lack of the thread title saying something akin to "NEWBIES READ THIS." That's a good way to get your thread not read by newbies, since everyone who actually needs the help feels they're above the stage of newbie and is more likely to go in to a thread like this, since it's phrased in such a way as to indicate it's more advanced. Heheheh. I was talking to DisruptiveIdiot about some key principles of level design over AIM. He's a great guy. Really insightful. Anyway, I had the idea to create this thread to help anyone who's willing to listen (and knowing my reputation, that won't be many people.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1. Don't put too much effort in to graphics and ASM hacks. This should be a no-brainer, but actually apparently its not. Now, this isn't to say that graphics and ASM hacks don't make a difference, because they do. If they suck horribly, it's ugly and few will play it. But, level design is the most important thing - never forget that. Other things improve the appearance of the level design that is already there and since many people are tired of seeing the same things over and over again, this is quite nice (see #6) - However, good graphics will never make a bad level a good level. This is where many people get confused - they see reviews saying it's great from idiots who don't know what's actually good and only care about graphics and ASM and get themselves in to the mindset of them a good hacker despite what the people who actually have experience say. This is a very dangerous mindset to get in to, because it's far too appealing to just let go, and since you've resolved yourself to the thought that you're doing a good job, you continue to do poorly since you don't trust anyone who says differently. 2. There is no deadline. If you rush, your levels will suck. 3. Flow is the most important thing, unless it's a castle level. Good levels have good flow. If you can go through a level over and over again for months and months, you've done a wonderful job. It doesn't matter how difficult it is as long as it's fun; there are some really difficult hacks out there that are really fun, and then there are some really easy ones out there that are also really fun (the original SMW comes to mind, though that's not technically a hack). The trick here is to be inventive. Come up with new ideas - new gameplay mechanics which encourage the player to keep going. The player must be allowed to continue moving. If they most be stopped or slowed for something to work, make that thing short so they can quickly get back to what's fun. This is why most people don't like water levels - they're naturally less fun, since you move slower and you can't quickly go where you want to go and do what you want to do - they're restrictive. A water level must be very well-built indeed to be fun, or it must have a fair amount of it where you don't have to be in the water. Now, like I said, castle levels are... Different. They still have to flow, but the atmosphere becomes the most important part. It just needs to be... Umm... Castley, which is something that I could never really describe here - see #6. 4. Playtest your levels over and over again. This sorta ties in to 3. This is very important because you may have new ideas you add that may not work. As a general rule, whenever you construct a new thing, playtest it immediately, so as not to forget. You may say, "But Kyouji, if I do that then it gets dull too quickly!" To this I have to say the following: You're doing something wrong; see 3. This is the alternate purpose of repeated playtesting - while it is good for making sure everything works, it's also good for establishing flow. If something isn't truly fun, then you can't play it over and over again, and if if you can't play it over and over again, then it doesn't have good flow and it isn't truly fun - this is difficult to tell unless you play it over and over again, and doing playtests over and over as you build the level allows this stage of testing to serve two purposes, which is always nice. 5. Not every idea is a good idea, and very few ideas are worth constructing entire levels over. I feel this is the single most important thing for anyone to know. The fact is, plenty of people are full of ideas. While it's good to be inventive, wisdom as to what you should be inventive about is far better. Whenever you come up with something new, always ask yourself, "Is this really a good idea? Will this be fun for me? Will this be fun for the player?" 6. Atmosphere is important. Now, this is where things bit a bit confusing - atmosphere is typically generated through level design and graphics combined. But I said that you shouldn't put too much effort in to graphics because if you do the graphics start to overshadow the level design? Well, it's a tricky subject. Thing is, the level design is the most important single aspect. You can generate atmosphere through skillful use of every aspect together. This is most important in castles but in every level it's useful, because it helps establish a particular feel for your hack, which will not only make it more fun, it will make it more popular. Atmosphere alone won't sell a hack, the way objects are laid out is still most important, but of course, knowledge of how to manipulate your hack's atmosphere will help you get ahead. 7. Glitches suck. You may think that usage of particular glitches is cool. No. Making the player hold two items? No. Loading the wrong tileset and having a particular enemy have the wrong graphics because it looks cool? There are one or two times where this looks decent, but in all other cases it's just bad. Now, I say decent here, not good, and especially not cool. Some clever exit which requires the player to turn a silver POW in to a blue POW through pipes? No. Making secrets (or worse, the proper level exit) accessable only by making them glitch the level so that the air works like a fence (yes, this is possible, though I won't say how)? SUPER no. If it involves glitches in any way, with the exception of items being carried on vines and such (which should still involve an explanation of how), it's not a good idea. Period. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I will close this by saying THIS IS NOT A LIST FOR YOU TO ADD TO. You can give suggestions, and if they're good I'll add them - I know this list could be better, since I'm not perfect either. Just the same, I probably won't add your idea. If I do, you're awesome. Maybe. (edited by Kyouji Craw on 04-16-05 04:21 AM) (edited by Kyouji Craw on 04-16-05 04:21 AM) (edited by Kyouji Craw on 04-16-05 04:41 AM) (edited by Kyouji Craw on 04-16-05 09:22 AM) (edited by Kyouji Craw on 04-16-05 12:40 PM) (edited by Kyouji Craw on 04-16-05 12:42 PM) |
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gnkkwinrrul Dry Bones Level: 39  Posts: 633/647 EXP: 402054 For next: 2717 Since: 03-15-04 From: LYKEOMGIMFROMSOMEPLACE???? Since last post: 81 days Last activity: 40 days |
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| This helps a lot I guess...for people who didn't already know this. But a lot of people do neglect these points (even I do sometimes), and hopefully now this will change. | |||
Sukasa Boomboom Error 349857348734534: The system experienced an error. Level: 57  Posts: 412/1981 EXP: 1446921 For next: 39007 Since: 02-06-05 From: *Shrug* Since last post: 6 days Last activity: 1 day |
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| That is a good list, Kyouji. I sometimes forget that, too. You've basically covered a huge amount of level design. Good work. | |||
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Xkeeper The required libraries have not been defined. Level: NAN  Posts: -1991/-863 EXP: NAN For next: 0 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: -753366 sec. |
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| 09:26'59"> Kyouji Craw: http://board.acmlm.org/thread.php?id=11562 09:27'15"> Kyouji Craw: Now to pray. 09:28'07"> Xkeeper NaN: It's a wasted effort. 09:30'03"> Xkeeper NaN: Newbies will never read that. 09:30'04"> Xkeeper NaN: Never. Sad, but true, given how awesome that is. |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38  Posts: 537/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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Originally posted by Kyouji Craw Disagreed. Honestly, no matter how brilliant the level design of a hack may be, if there were no new graphics or ASM.. I probably wouldn't play it. It probably wouldn't really feel like a "new experience". Unless everyone was talking about how great the hack was (Dario's World comes to mind), I simply wouldn't bother to start. I also think you should clarify about what you mean by "they see reviews saying it's great from idiots who don't know what's actually good". Are you saying that you know what's good and other people don't? Great graphics will make up for so-so level design in most people's judgements... just because it won't in yours doesn't mean people don't "know what's actually good." I think your best argument here would be to say that people will always be able to make better graphics, but not just anyone can make good level design... a hack with just great levels will stay great longer than a hack with just great graphics. That's what's being said in criticism of DW:TLC, right? |
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Alastor the Stylish Hey! I made a cool game! It's called "I poisoned half the food, so if you eat you might die!" Have a taco. Level: 114 Posts: 5887/7620 EXP: 16258468 For next: 51099 Since: 03-15-04 From: Oregon, US Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| I'm not saying I know exactly what's good, because that would be damned arrogant of me to say, but I sure as hell know better than those mindless yes-men who like everything, no? And hhallahh... This is not a debate thread. Don't take things from other threads and use them as arguments here, because honestly... How do I say this... I find your ideals to be flawed, and I don't put any merit to your statements. You probably feel the same about me, but eh... I don't care. (edited by Kyouji Craw on 04-16-05 08:03 AM) |
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Sendy Shyguy Level: 17 Posts: 76/93 EXP: 21726 For next: 3017 Since: 03-25-04 From: South of UK Since last post: 55 days Last activity: 53 days |
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| Atmosphere. If a level doesn't have atmosphere it's dead. Atmosphere can come from graphics or good layouts, or even something else. | |||
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 538/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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Originally posted by Sendy Agreed completely. I recall that you and FPI were both really great with this (in fact, if FPI re-released SR with a new overworld, as I've said he should do, I might venture to say that it's better than DW:TLC.) And I'd also say that it's difficult to have a good atmosphere without new graphics especially, going to my point above.. But I'll try not to "debate" people's thoughts. (edited by hhallahh on 04-16-05 08:33 AM) |
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Schwa Green Birdo The Embodyment of Good, infused with the Living Assets "Alpha Psibeam!" (echo effects) Level: 66  Posts: 1306/2214 EXP: 2457091 For next: 4760 Since: 04-25-04 From: Spanaway, WA Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 13 hours |
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| Kyouji, well said. I agree with you 110% with your views on level construction. Please, guys, let's give a round of applause for K. Craw and his righteous anger. This guy is officially our most powerful weapon against nOObs. *claps vigorously* Well done, well done! |
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Juggling Joker Boomerang Brother SMW Hacking Moderator Yeah, JAMH is still being worked on. Level: 48 Posts: 736/1033 EXP: 811447 For next: 12096 Since: 03-15-04 From: Wyoming Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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| I think something needs to be said about releasing hacks with avoidable glitches, kthx. | |||
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Alastor the Stylish Hey! I made a cool game! It's called "I poisoned half the food, so if you eat you might die!" Have a taco. Level: 114 Posts: 5888/7620 EXP: 16258468 For next: 51099 Since: 03-15-04 From: Oregon, US Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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That's pretty much covered by #4, JJ  Hmmm... I added one on atmosphere and referenced it in other parts. I initially meant to (there were some references to it in parts of it) but I seem to have forgotten. Thank you for reminding me, Sendy. Y'know, I have to say... I respect you. (edited by Kyouji Craw on 04-16-05 09:28 AM) |
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Juggling Joker Boomerang Brother SMW Hacking Moderator Yeah, JAMH is still being worked on. Level: 48 Posts: 737/1033 EXP: 811447 For next: 12096 Since: 03-15-04 From: Wyoming Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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| It's covered broadly, yes, but I'd like to see it laid out in plain english. Avoiding things like pipes not working or getting killed by a poorly placed exits or anything else that renders a hack unplayable is a given. I'm talking little things, like using enemies from the wrong tilesets cuz "it looks cool" (which sadly enough, some people actually think) or forcing the player to make use of skill tricks like holding two items at once. I absolutely hate things like that. They completely ruin what would otherwise be good hacks because the designer didn't take time to polish things up. | |||
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Smallhacker Green Birdo SMW Hacking Moderator Level: 68  Posts: 1510/2273 EXP: 2647223 For next: 81577 Since: 03-15-04 From: Söderhamn, Sweden Since last post: 10 hours Last activity: 9 hours |
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| My opinion in the Level Design vs. Graphics vs. ASM: All of them are important. Level Design is the most important thing. Good level design equals fun to play. Period. Graphics is also important. This adds next to nothing to the fun to play value. However, a hack with good graphics makes more people interested, meaning that more people will play it. I mean... If you're posting a few screen shots with ugly graphics, next to nobody will be interested, since it's hard to judge the level design. ASM is pretty important. It makes people more interested, like with graphics. The best thing about ASM is that it allows you to do what SMW normally wouldn't let you to. Also, a bunch of nice ASM hacks makes the hack (mostly) more original. |
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Alastor the Stylish Hey! I made a cool game! It's called "I poisoned half the food, so if you eat you might die!" Have a taco. Level: 114 Posts: 5890/7620 EXP: 16258468 For next: 51099 Since: 03-15-04 From: Oregon, US Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Smallhacker: I tried to cover the graphics are still important in both #1 and #6, heh. And I tried not to cover ASM in too much detail, since most of the people here can't work with it. I mean, it can be a very useful tool which you can use for awesome things... However, it's not necessary, and inventive use of what's already there can sometimes produce the same results. JJ: Alright. I'll add something to it about that. Later, I mean... I'm tired of this... |
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DisruptiveIdiot Paratroopa Level: 21 Posts: 69/147 EXP: 42614 For next: 7329 Since: 04-09-04 Since last post: 4 days Last activity: 5 hours |
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This is all totally true, I do detect a bit of my speech in this topic though  |
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Alastor the Stylish Hey! I made a cool game! It's called "I poisoned half the food, so if you eat you might die!" Have a taco. Level: 114 Posts: 5894/7620 EXP: 16258468 For next: 51099 Since: 03-15-04 From: Oregon, US Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Well you DID give me the idea, and a lot of your reasoning was used... So... That's not terribly hard to believe. | |||
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cpubasic13 17 years old now. Time to buy some M rated games by myself! Level: 54  Posts: 967/1346 EXP: 1206934 For next: 26936 Since: 03-15-04 From: Blame my parents, Eddy Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 1 day |
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| Level design is key. Without level design, what does a hack have? Well, if there are no levels, you can't put in graphics or ASM hacks to be used for that matter. So without level design being good, odds are the level won't be good. I totaly agree with the flow of a level. If you can still play the level over and over, it works. Plus, the only time you should make a frustrating level is when you have a special world, which can always have exceptions. However, if there is no special world, then these principles should be followed. So... good work Kyouji. For the atmosphere, though, you say you want a castle... well, castly. What about in my hack where the castles are going to be anthills? I guess I would have to make them... anthilly... or part-anthill part-castle... ...don't ask... |
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Bowser_k Paragoomba Level: 13  Posts: 27/70 EXP: 8824 For next: 1443 Since: 03-20-05 From: In a Tie Fighter Since last post: 175 days Last activity: 175 days |
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| Hey, could you give an example of what you'd say is *A Good Level* How bout a screen or two!.  |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 543/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| I'd like to note that atmosphere alone will definately sell a hack to me. Maybe I'm shallow? But a hack with great atmosphere would have to have pretty terrible design otherwise in order to turn me off. Unfortunately, as the post implies, atmosphere is something which is almost impossible to "explain". You can either create it or you can't, I imagine... |
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Alastor the Stylish Hey! I made a cool game! It's called "I poisoned half the food, so if you eat you might die!" Have a taco. Level: 114 Posts: 5908/7620 EXP: 16258468 For next: 51099 Since: 03-15-04 From: Oregon, US Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| hhallahh: I didn't say you're shallow. You are correct about the difficulty of atmosphere. It really is impossible to explain well... But anyway, really, I just don't think that a definitive feel for a hack is not enough to make it good. Having a specific feel doesn't make something fun in and of itself, after all... The thing is, though, is that there aren't really any examples of someone utilizing atmosphere very well and still failing for me to point to here, because if you can make a good atmosphere, you're in general also capable of good level design, and thus are quite likely to make usage of it. That doesn't mean it's impossible, though. Bowser_k: A screen or two, you say? While I can't say I understand why you think that will help, I can do this for you. I won't, though. No example so small would actually tell anything interesting, and if it was good, people would just copy it exactly... Hence my refraining from posting examples. You use the advice in your own way... I mean, that's the point, isn't it? You don't do exactly what I do, though following the guidelines I laid out is probably a good idea... But those are never so specific that they give you exact directions on what to do, because doing so stifles the creative process, which wasn't exactly my intention. Now the the best advice I can give you, specifically, is in a completely different field. Never use the sunglasses smiley. If you use it, you just look dumb. In fact, if you use it, you're drained of your body's natural awesome and are doomed to fade in to (edited by Kyouji Craw on 04-17-05 07:34 PM) (edited by Kyouji Craw on 04-17-05 08:45 PM) (edited by Kyouji Craw on 04-17-05 08:51 PM) |
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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Super Mario World hacking - Kyouji's principles of good level design (and therefore good hacks) |
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