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05-08-24 02:02 AM |
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| 0 users currently in ROM Hacking | 1 guest |
| Main - ROM Hacking - Link's Awakening's room designers were rather bad. | New thread | New reply |
| Xkeeper |
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Level: 105 Posts: 1388/2846 EXP: 12039381 Next: 222879 Since: 02-19-07 Last post: 6071 days Last view: 2809 days |
Hover over rooms highlighted in blue for more information. How it goes Yeah, I'm bored. ____________________ I dealt with it. |
| MathOnNapkins |
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 Super Koopa Level: 62 Posts: 88/842 EXP: 1937301 Next: 47385 Since: 02-19-07 From: durff Last post: 4500 days Last view: 4023 days |
Isn't there anyway to expand the Zelda 4 rom? I would care about saving bytes in Zelda 3 but it's just way too easy to expand it up to 32 megabits and forget about it.
edit: for the record there are objects in Zelda 3 that would have saved the room designers space but they didn't even use them. ____________________ Zelda Hacking Forum hobbies: delectatio morosa |
| Xkeeper |
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Level: 105 Posts: 1394/2846 EXP: 12039381 Next: 222879 Since: 02-19-07 Last post: 6071 days Last view: 2809 days |
There probably is, but damned if I know how/feel like it.
This is actually kind of fun...  ____________________ I dealt with it. |
| HyperHacker |
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... Level: 73 Posts: 455/1220 EXP: 3369920 Next: 115948 Since: 03-25-07 From: no Last post: 6103 days Last view: 6086 days |
So is it only Firefox that uses standard Windo...
...ws tooltips to display title attributes, resulting in your very long titles getting cut off like that? Or did you just not check them?  |
| Xkeeper |
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Level: 105 Posts: 1397/2846 EXP: 12039381 Next: 222879 Since: 02-19-07 Last post: 6071 days Last view: 2809 days |
Opera and Internet Explorer use standard tooltips and show everything (there is no limit to tooltip length)
Firefox does not use standard tooltips and cuts the length of it. I do not tweak my design for stupid browsers. ____________________ I dealt with it. |
| HyperHacker |
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... Level: 73 Posts: 462/1220 EXP: 3369920 Next: 115948 Since: 03-25-07 From: no Last post: 6103 days Last view: 6086 days |
Hm, I've had issues with the standard tooltips cutting off my text before. |
| Squash Monster |
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 Buster Beetle Level: 48 Posts: 48/469 EXP: 805194 Next: 18349 Since: 02-22-07 From: New York Last post: 5708 days Last view: 5708 days |
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| Xkeeper |
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Level: 105 Posts: 1401/2846 EXP: 12039381 Next: 222879 Since: 02-19-07 Last post: 6071 days Last view: 2809 days |
Posted by Squash MonsterObjects with either width or height (not both). In some cases, I've acually found objects that are totally pointless sitting under other tiles in a giant stack. 
Sometimes I think that their editing tools were even worse than Nephi. ____________________ I dealt with it. |
| HyperHacker |
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... Level: 73 Posts: 468/1220 EXP: 3369920 Next: 115948 Since: 03-25-07 From: no Last post: 6103 days Last view: 6086 days |
Nintendo seems to love these akward level formats, especially when space is important. I guess it does save space defining levels in columns (Zelda 1, Super Mario Land), but how do you design like that? And don't get me started on OoT, I suspect crack was involved.
Mario Kart 64 has some interesting design choices too. The biggest ones I noticed were not using structures where they should or not putting everything into them (player stats are spread all over, a level's sky colour is not in its header but another table) and not taking advantage of padding (the polygon structure has an unused byte that would be perfect for alpha, but they use some other method instead, a few methods in fact). |
| Xkeeper |
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Level: 105 Posts: 1408/2846 EXP: 12039381 Next: 222879 Since: 02-19-07 Last post: 6071 days Last view: 2809 days |
Yep.
I should really recode my level viewer to support macros (by viewing how Nephi displays them, I guess), but to also draw straight to an image instead of just parsing the final image to the drawer... Mostly because that way, I could find some way to "layer" objects instead of only showing the final ones. ____________________ I dealt with it. |
| Acmlm |
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 Flurry Level: 37 Posts: 218/251 EXP: 315328 Next: 22925 Since: 02-19-07 From: Mirabel, Québec, Canada Last post: 6191 days Last view: 1824 days |
Flurry #&postrank& SMB2 was a bit weird too ... object heights were relative to the previous object (anything above 15 required "page skip" objects), there were 2 types of door/entrance pointers (one of which couldn't be used after 6-1), enemy data had no "end" byte at all (probably depended on the level length), each level had 10 areas in the pointer table but many were unused, putting objects behind others sometimes required the use of "back to start" objects followed by page skips, and I'm probably missing some
But at least SMB2 didn't waste space like this for level data, they only wasted ROM banks instead by leaving so much empty space ... Posted by XkeeperI use Firefox and the tooltips work perfectly ____________________ |
| HyperHacker |
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... Level: 73 Posts: 475/1220 EXP: 3369920 Next: 115948 Since: 03-25-07 From: no Last post: 6103 days Last view: 6086 days |
Heh, ROM bank 0x13 in Pokémon G/S is completely empty. This was probably a compiler bug, since the previous bank is completely full. I think there's a few others too.
 <-- hover here |
| TheGreatGuy |
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 Beezo Level: 49 Posts: 113/480 EXP: 832255 Next: 51628 Since: 03-15-07 Last post: 5779 days Last view: 5644 days |
I don't know about you, but the tooltip stops at the p in partway. I use FireFox, yes. It's not too big a deal though, since you can still see the entire thing by right clicking and going to properties, and highlighting to scroll through. And yeah, it does seem that when assembling the rooms, nintendo really doesn't care much about space, all the better for us though, easier to add stuff. ____________________ There are things I want to put here. Like a cool picture, my 8-bit theatre character test result, my MS and RO characters... But it's 12 AM, and I'm sleepy. |
| Tyty |
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 Vire Jizz Danmaku Level: 77 Posts: 5/1381 EXP: 4049801 Next: 141328 Since: 04-20-07 From: Canada Last post: 4459 days Last view: 3731 days |
Well, rom hacking has gotten pretty far in coding, right? well, maybe back then these were to stop hackers from adding that many things to rooms... ____________________ |
| BMF54123 |
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 Buzzy Beetle Level: 44 Posts: 178/375 EXP: 575834 Next: 35451 Since: 02-19-07 From: [citation needed] Last post: 6098 days Last view: 6098 days |
Posted by tyty210Uh, no. ____________________ [citation needed] |
| Ailure |
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Hats Steam Board2 group Level: 121 Posts: 656/3965 EXP: 19797431 Next: 259265 Since: 02-19-07 From: Sweden, Skåne Last post: 3313 days Last view: 2064 days |
More like bad coding and grey goose.
But seriously, that's the worst theory I heard so far. It's probably just crappy optimization in the end with their editor.
...reminds me how I thought about making a SMB3 editor once and how it would handle space. ____________________ AIM: gamefreak1337, MSN: Emil_sim@spray.se, XMPP: ailure@xmpp.kafuka.org
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| Drag |
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 Spike Dragon Level: 57 Posts: 332/705 EXP: 1484346 Next: 1582 Since: 02-19-07 From: 
Last post: 3939 days Last view: 3939 days |
To be honest, unless you can kill like 4kb from that rom by optimization, they probably didn't care that much when designing, since they probably knew how many banks the game would take up. ____________________  |
| Xkeeper |
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Level: 105 Posts: 1420/2846 EXP: 12039381 Next: 222879 Since: 02-19-07 Last post: 6071 days Last view: 2809 days |
Even then, it begs some questions.
- If they didn't care about space, why not just use plain tilemaps? They only take up 80 bytes (8 * 10) - Why are there so many 3-byte empty rooms, or even multiple copies of the same room? And so on, and so forth. It's just weird. ____________________ I dealt with it. |
| MathOnNapkins |
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Super Koopa Level: 62 Posts: 95/842 EXP: 1937301 Next: 47385 Since: 02-19-07 From: durff Last post: 4500 days Last view: 4023 days |
I honestly don't think that game programmers and designers get as down and dirty with data as we do when they're making their stuff. They often have middle ware programs and once they're written, they trust their output as long as it works and they don't have massive problems. ____________________ Zelda Hacking Forum hobbies: delectatio morosa |
| HyperHacker |
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... Level: 73 Posts: 487/1220 EXP: 3369920 Next: 115948 Since: 03-25-07 From: no Last post: 6103 days Last view: 6086 days |
I get the feeling they just hack something together, then if it's fairly close to a power-of-two size, optimize until it fits that size. Maybe they'd save 32K by doing this and that but when that's in a ROM that's 1.8MB, they have to use a 2MB chip anyway, so there's no point spending extra time doing it. (Example numbers only. ) |
| Main - ROM Hacking - Link's Awakening's room designers were rather bad. | New thread | New reply |
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