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04-29-24 02:28 AM |
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| Main - ROM Hacking - Zelda - The Legend of Link (v3-12-20) Released | New thread | New reply |
| Chaobomr |
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 Buster Beetle Banned: Spammer takeover? Level: 45 Posts: 401/467 EXP: 639006 Next: 21158 Since: 05-07-13 From: The dirty south Last post: 3483 days Last view: 3481 days |
So somebody wanted to make your game into a cart? Big. frickin'. deal. Like infidelity, I would be flattered if someone wanted to make one of my hacks into an actual game, and also like infidelity, I wouldn't accept any money either. As far as my beliefs go, I understand that ROM hacking is probably within a legal gray area, but that won't stop me. As long as you only distribute the changes, you should be okay. I had a good time alpha and beta testing this project and I would earnestly love to see more of your work. Screw the naysayers. ____________________ Sorry for the stupidity. That jerk will be dealt with in the most insane way possible. |
| puzzledude |
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 Porcupo Level: 39 Posts: 279/302 EXP: 371267 Next: 33504 Since: 08-16-10 Last post: 2277 days Last view: 2277 days |
Making carts Is a big frickin deal. And if you are flattered, that someone makes 150 dollars per one game (and wants to sell 200 of them), which you made, behind your back, without even informing you, then you are dumb. A cart is a rom, and roms are illegal. Even publishing a rom on public site is illegal. Rom hacks must be published as Patches only, to be used by private individuals only for personal use only (no mass production of any kind). Rom hacks must not be reproduced, to be soled. When it comes to roms, no monetary actions must be made, specially by a third party individuals, who have no right on the game what so ever. Don't get me wrong, Infidelity is a hero, since he made such a fantastic game and has put great efforts in it. So he is the only person, who has the right to earn money, if he so wishes. But there is a problem, since the game is coauthored by their original authors. But what if the author (like me) of the hack does Not wish for his work to be carted and soled, since he refuses money due to legal purposes. But the repro guys do it anyway. Then we are dealing with severe abuse of the hacker's work, a back stabbing action of a third party, greedy for money. The repro back stabbers don't have any right on the game: they don't own the original programing, they don't own the changes made to the game (ie hacking), they don't even own the manuals or the case, or the phisical cart the game is on (since they simply take apart some other cart). So how can they sell it, if they don't own one single piece of it. So how can they sell it, if the author chooses to make a specific message in the read me: not to cart the game, with the purpose of mass selling. And if the author would for some unknown reason allow the repro back stabbers to make money on his account, while he gets none; then he can get in trouble because of the original authors, who could still accuse him of allowing illegal acts. Rom hackers, due to legal purposes, make your future hacks incompatible with real harware. Emulation rules (the only way to keep it legal). |
| daltone |
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Newcomer Level: 7 Posts: 7/7 EXP: 1395 Next: 53 Since: 10-15-08 Last post: 3502 days Last view: 3512 days |
What your suggesting is to make it incompatible with any future emulators, no one is going to keep old shitty inaccurate emulators around forever.
It seems silly to me to code for a system only to make it not work. Why not make PC games then? People can and have pirated games since Atari. Good luck stopping that train. Have you ever tried contacting nintendos legal department about it? |
| Thanatos-Zero |
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 Nipper Plant Level: 45 Posts: 367/423 EXP: 652998 Next: 7166 Since: 11-25-08 From: Germany - Rheinlandpfalz - Wittlich - Zur Phillippsburg 25 Last post: 1093 days Last view: 1056 days |
The person who originally talked with me, has revealed himself to be a pretty fool, who was obsessed for nostalgia and sharing it with everyone.
In any case, if he is to believed, he rather wants to port homebrew games, while working closely together with the creators. I also highly suggested him to acquire the rights, so he can do this legitimately. In any case, I am not against cartridges, where you can upload your hacks personally and play them for yourself on a real console. ____________________ I was a prisoner enclosed in the void, were everything might end up just as myself. There I was called the death in the void, but after a long sleep my drill was ready to pierce the void. I came back... to guide those who are in doubt and to crush any corrupted mind. "Just who in the hell do you think I am?!". |
| puzzledude |
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Porcupo Level: 39 Posts: 280/302 EXP: 371267 Next: 33504 Since: 08-16-10 Last post: 2277 days Last view: 2277 days |
Posted by Thanatos-Zero Exactly. In fact I know a person, who is also an expert on rom editing, Red Scorpion. He even translated my games into german and released them. Plus he made carts out of these games (for himself) and is now enjoying them on real hardware (for himself). So he is using them for private perposes. Even flash carts can have the same result. So, everyone, if you are a hard fan of real harware, then cart your favourite hacks (for yourself) and play them on real harware (for yourself), or simply put them on flashcarts to be used with real harware Snes clones, such as Game Doctor. No selling or buying is necessary. By the way, from where I'm from, there are no SNES consoles anywhere. Snes consoles, clones and carts are completely extinct here. No homebrew or repro cart store anywhere (considered illegal). The only way for me to play Snes is on PC emulators. So much for what is extinct and what not. Don't you see, real hardware is extinct, that's why we need emulators, to even bring this retro extinct games to life. That's why emulation is the best for everyone (it has options that the original harware can only dream of). Of course you also have very poor emulators, such as DS Snes emulator, but Zsnes or Snes9x for PC can surely do the job for SNES emulation more than efficiently). |
| Insectduel |
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 Hammer Brother Level: 68 Posts: 901/1069 EXP: 2688370 Next: 40430 Since: 02-16-08 From: Insectduel's office Last post: 1260 days Last view: 1259 days |
Posted by daltone That's not what Puzzledude meant, he meant that ROM-Hacks cannot be played on real consoles but still played on Emulators like NEStopia or FCEUX. As for myself I would not allow this shit happen either. I really hope Frank's 2nd SMB3 hack for SMAS isn't converted into a cartridge or I'll be pissed and the game still has bugs and enemy glitches. My game still holds a x200 byte header because isn't real SNES consoles cannot play any games with x200 byte headers? I rather get paid from ROM-Hackers for helping people out for their projects because I put a price for people that needed my help to program and to beta-test. I do not freelance and my time in real life is extremely limited which are my reasons. Another legal term is I may do a kickstarter to complete any of my incomplete ROM-Hacking projects and pay the people that help me improve the game. |
| Malachi Constant |
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 Micro-Goomba Level: 11 Posts: 16/19 EXP: 4976 Next: 1009 Since: 06-10-14 Last post: 3493 days Last view: 3365 days |
Posted by puzzledude The problem in this instance is that Legend of Link doesn't work on a rom cart such as Everdrive or Powerpak. And very few people have the skills and knowledge to make repros for themselves, I bet. Even less so in this case where the game is significantly more difficult to make than your average reproduction. So what's the harm in paying someone to do it for you? I assume that I pay for labour and material and not the actual patch, which is already available for free on the Internet. Since I own the original Legend of Zelda, getting a version of it with Legend of Link patched on top would fall under the same kind of infringement as hacking the game, no? ... but all this is a bit moot in my opinion. We're talking about thirty year old hardware that isn't in circulation anymore. Nintendo don't make money off the system any more. It doesn't harm them in any way. All it does is keeping a small retro community happy and active. It's bloody ridiculous to make a huge issue out of a few repro carts when the reason they are being made is so people can get a chance to enjoy the game on real hardware. It's a small production of a handful of games for initiated people to whom these things actually matter, not a commercial release. Also, the high price in this instance isn't because the repro makers are trying to make a huge profit off of it; it's because MM5 boards with that kind of memory capacity are bloody expensive. I only know of a handful of games that could have been the donor in this instance, and they all go for 80 dollars or more on ebay. Posted by puzzledude I'm yet to find an emulator that can play even the most basic games without any flaws. Try putting Punch Out, for instance, into any emulator out there and then compare that to playing it on original hardware. It's just impossible to compensate for the slowdowns if you're used to the real thing. There's another problem with your method of choice too: A lot of people don't want "options that the original hardware can only dream of". In that case you might as well go down the same road Shovel Knight did, where they imitated the style of the NES but didn't conform to the limits of the format. You really don't need an emulator if you're just going to imitate a NES game. Indeed, one has to wonder what the point of being involved in retro game making is if you feel the need to go beyond what the format is capable of. The 8-bit aesthetics can be easily reproduced by modern game-making programs that don't require assembly code. What makes NES homebrews and romhacks special are that they work within the parameters of the console. That's what defines them, at least to me. I prefer to think of these parameters, set by the hardware, as creative challenges rather than restrictions. And restrictions bring out the best of creativity, not the worst. There's a famous Orson Welles quote regarding this that goes: "The enemy of art is the absence of limitations". |
| bmw |
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Newcomer Level: 6 Posts: 4/5 EXP: 850 Next: 57 Since: 06-29-08 Last post: 3500 days Last view: 3500 days |
I've been playing through the game, and I made it to the skull level (the 4th dungeon) and after I died inside the dungeon and saved the game, now when I go back, the gate to the dungeon is once again closed, the "I am Error" guy is protecting the gate, and I no longer have a blue letter to show him to pass. I even went back to the dungeon 1 where I got it and its no longer there.
So I'm completely stuck. Is there another way into the dungeon, or have I stumbled onto a bug? |
| math |
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Newcomer Level: 6 Posts: 2/6 EXP: 870 Next: 37 Since: 09-20-14 Last post: 3489 days Last view: 1803 days |
There is no need to worry about a mass production of this hack. There is only 1 NES game suitable as a donor cartridge. This game is already a rare NES game which sells for an insane price. Buying up all these games will make the price go even more insane.
Even the EPROMs you need to create the cartridge are overpriced. Next to this, there is a huge risk screwing up your donor cartridge... Overall, creating a cartridge of this game is purely for the people who really want to play this game on real hardware and know how to create and advanced reproduction cartridge. |
| Vanya |
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 Red Koopa Level: 27 Posts: 109/139 EXP: 105121 Next: 11038 Since: 01-22-13 Last post: 3296 days Last view: 3295 days |
Not to me3ntion that a few hundred copies of anything is laughably far away from being considered mass production. ____________________ Krakenskin Leather Works, my Etsy store. LordVanya, my art page. FundamentalEssence, my game development page. |
| puzzledude |
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Porcupo Level: 39 Posts: 281/302 EXP: 371267 Next: 33504 Since: 08-16-10 Last post: 2277 days Last view: 2277 days |
The harm is that you show great disrespect towards the author of the hack, who kindly asked you, not to make, buy or sell carts of his hack. That's why all hacks should stay in "software" version, so that there are no materials or "labour" or Eproms etc. The hacks must be free of all monetary transactions and thus free of all hardware.
The hacker's final release is a Patch (not a rom or cart) to be used by private individuals who own the original rom (software), so that they can enjoy the new hacked rom (software). The rom file is a final product. No further actions by the users of edited roms are endorced by the romhackers. Making, selling and buying carts or posting prepatched roms of hacks is thus Not the same as hacking the game. It is the cart makers, that make our work look bad and give a romhacking an illegal middlename.
Some hacks were designed to be used with special emulator functions. But I can agree, that the let's plays filled with constant use of save states and load states and fast forwarding are annoing.
Everything beyond private use is mass production. You only need 1 copy for yourself. Do the math, what is not endorced by the game maker (everything above 1). 300 copies of 150 dollars a piece is 45000 dollars, which someone made with the abuse of someone else's work (ie with selling of something they don't own). This is obviously mass production and "mass money" and a great disrespect towards the author of the game, who politely asked that his work should not to be a part of any monetary transaction. Making and selling of carts of any number is what makes romhacking illegal. Posting IPS patches for private use is not. ------- Regarding the real harware being better than emulation. Despite the fact, that is true, the difference is minimal and becomes irrelevant, because we all know, that the hacker (even if he has beta testers) can never produce a flawless game. All hacks have bugs (take a look at Parallel Worlds, great hack, but has some game-crashing bugs even). So how can a game crash bug be compared to minimal difference in perfomance. Hacks are and will be partly bugged and unofficial. They were not designed with real hardware in mind. So carting the game makes no sence. If someone carts a romhack then he has achieved: -that a partially bugged game runs better (irony) -that the barely legal becomes illegal -that the romhackers feel like criminals -that a fine Freeware-game is being abused with money making ------- Guess what, I love what romhackers do and I love what Digital Mantra has done with Super Metroid hack Eris, new version (since I always wanted a sequel to this game, but never got it... untill now). I even contacted him and congratulated him. The very same can be said for Infidelity's Legend of Link. So how should I honour the people who brought me those fine new edited games... by illegal carting and selling of their work? You honour the hacker by playing his game (freeware private use only, no money - either selling or buying), not to abuse it with cart selling. |
| Malachi Constant |
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Micro-Goomba Level: 11 Posts: 17/19 EXP: 4976 Next: 1009 Since: 06-10-14 Last post: 3493 days Last view: 3365 days |
Posted by puzzledude If you browse a few pages back in this thread you'll see that Infidelity gave them his permission, so you don't have a point here I'm afraid. Posted by puzzledude Right, and I own the original rom. So what's the deal? That I didn't make the cart myself because I don't know how? That's just silly. At the end of the day a hack, whenever applied to a ROM, is a copyright infingement, no matter whether you own the original game or not. When you buy a physical game you actually buy a license to use (and sell) said copy. It's called the exhaustion doctrine in common law. It's the reason you don't have to ask Nintendo for permission when you sell your old Mario games on Ebay. You don't buy a license to alter someone else's intellectual property, however. The content is not yours. I suppose you could argue that no one should ever patch their games with hacks and that's the way the hacking scene was intended to work, but again, it's just silly and makes no sense. Hacks are made to be played. They are made of and for people who own the original games, I'll say that much. But beyond that point it strikes me as both ridiculous and pretentious to try and take the higher moral ground here. |
| Vanya |
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Red Koopa Level: 27 Posts: 110/139 EXP: 105121 Next: 11038 Since: 01-22-13 Last post: 3296 days Last view: 3295 days |
Posted by puzzledude This is a patently false statement. By definition mass-production involves the use of assembly line techniques and automation. As a legal term it still means the same thing. In no way can the modification of a few hundred carts by hand be considered mass-production in any sense of the word.
That is your opinion. How do you then reconcile collectors who buy up multiple copies of something for the expressed purpose of raising the after market value?
The 'math' is irrelevant to the legality and the definition of mass production. But to correct your misuse of numbers, you are forgetting the cost of the donor carts. So your 45,000 is quickly reduced by more than half to 21,000. And as far as labor costs for a relatively rare skill set goes, that's pretty fair. Plus, do you really think any IP holder would even blink at 21k$? That is chump change to them, and that is why romhacking and repro carts are still around.
By this logic it is disrespectful for a photographer to take a picture of illegal graffiti, print it, frame it and sell his skill as a photographer. Like the graffiti artist, a romhack author really has no legal rights and if they didn't want their product misused they shouldn't have put it out into the world. And it's not much different for legal products and IP owners. Once your product is out there isn't much you can actually do to stop people from doing what they will illegal or not. Romhacking is what makes romhacking illegal. The carts themselves are paid for, the technology in them is no longer copyrighted, so that only leaves the software. Thus, repro carts are only illegal BECAUSE the romhack being placed in it is illegal.
No but applying it to a ROM is. Downloading part of a bittorrent is also legal. Once those bits are assembled into a working program you didn't pay for it's stealing. ____________________ Krakenskin Leather Works, my Etsy store. LordVanya, my art page. FundamentalEssence, my game development page. |
| Mediocre Ibex? |
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Newcomer Level: 3 Posts: 1/1 EXP: 75 Next: 53 Since: 07-12-08 From: Illinois, USA Last post: 3500 days Last view: 3949 days |
Posted by Malachi Constant nonsense. *distributing* a modified ROM is copyright infringement. but you can do whatever you please to your own copy. the DMCA doesn't govern a bunch of NES and SNES games made well before 1998. i can't think of which other law you'd be basing this claptrap on. presence or absence of a resale license is irrelevant to a patch user who's not buying or selling anything. it's also irrelevant to a patch author who's not selling anything or distributing the original game, but rather a file consisting of their own changes to it. |
| EggplantPimp |
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 Buzzy Beetle Level: 44 Posts: 167/378 EXP: 579096 Next: 32189 Since: 04-30-07 From: Boo York, Home Of The Big Pumpkin Last post: 1255 days Last view: 1255 days |
 ____________________ - Nikki |
| MiniCompute |
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 Bubble Level: 66 Posts: 619/981 EXP: 2421977 Next: 39874 Since: 04-25-07 Last post: 492 days Last view: 700 days |
I think it would be a best choice if anyone does rom hacks from this point forward.
When your done with the finished hack or short demo... Please note in your read me to tell people or rom carters not to use your hack to make my money or sell illegal. State the date/time of the finished patch, include a legit email address just in case somethings happens and they know how to contact you directly. Also note which rom/ips patch hosting sites may show your work publicly or not to. If you want show case your work on a working system Nintendo dsi/Lite/3ds will do. Test your work thorougly to make sure it works on official nintendo hardware and leave it that. http://eng.supercard.sc/manual/dstwo/ Real sad to see this starting to become a problem but you all can curve that issue mighty fast if you stick to the scrip like Puzzle an Insectduel mention.. Have a look at insectduels readme from his past finished hacks. Thats a good example of all rom hackers should do. |
| puzzledude |
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Porcupo Level: 39 Posts: 282/302 EXP: 371267 Next: 33504 Since: 08-16-10 Last post: 2277 days Last view: 2277 days |
It is patently irrelevant, what a mass-production is. My readme was clear, "private use only". If you make just 1 more copy and sell it, it is no longer "private use" (doesn't matter if it is mass or not mass production).
Again irrelevant. You can make a hundred copies for your self. Still falls under "private use".
Don't forget to send the 10,000 out of 20,000 to Nintendo (despite the fact that it is change to them) and the other 9,990 to the romhacker (Not change for him). The repro back-stabber should get max of 10 for his "labour". Try working on a romhack for 5 years, that's labour, not your "copy/pasting" foreign work onto a cart. Plus, who asked you to buy expensive harware to make something illegal anyway. In fact, you were asked not to do that (at least that's what I've written along all readmes of my releases, but apparently cart makers are blind and deaf).
And we didn't. We made a patch. This is Not a rom, nor a cart, nor is it illegal, since we made the Ips (from zero). It is completely ours. We have every right towards the Ips, which we published. We trusted the world to use our work in private, and most of the users listened, but some are just to greedy and the words honour and trust are forein to them. They do however know, what is abuse and back-stabbing.
Actually 90 percent of everyone is enjoying our game in a legal way. And legal way is "private use". Unfortunately some people are just bad instead of good and decide to do bad things, simply because they know, that nobody can or will do anything. So there is no Sanction. And that is the essence of all crime.
And who put the rom into the cart. The cart maker! Because he has put it in, with the purpose of selling, he made it illegal. Anything else is legal: put it in, but not sell it (but rather play it). Not put it in and play it on emulator (far away from public). Put on flash cart and play it. etc etc In fact, you were asked by the author not to put the rom into the cart or to put it on any site, or give it to anyone.
No, it is not. It is barely legal, if in private use and if the patching was done by the same private user, who also owns the original rom.
Didn't know, that people with such deluded mind actually live on this planet. There is only one thing which makes romhacking illegal: making carts and selling them. However everything else is barely legal. MONEY makes it illegal. And you PAY for harware not software. Software is free of charge and must be in private use to stay legal. Software which is not in private use (ie putting a rom on a public site) is yet again illegal. If I change Link's hair from pink to brown in a rom. Do you consider this illegal. Or if I change vertical wall into the horizontal wall. And how much money did I make for it to be illegal. ------------------
Thank God, that someone is still sane on this forum, since a lot are not. ------------- Let me quote King Mike, admin/global moderator of the most famous site for romhacks Romhacking.net, who's done numerous hacks and specially translations. "I can't express how much I hate repro carts. People who are selling those behind my back should be burned on a stake." |
| B.B.Link |
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 Mini Octorok Level: 11 Posts: 12/17 EXP: 5453 Next: 532 Since: 10-02-07 Last post: 3097 days Last view: 3097 days |
Posted by puzzledude And there lies the problem. You think "Rom Hacking" is labor. Sure, learning asm, using debuggers, .etc is work, but the game you "mod" is 100% done for you. All your doing is modifying the original data to be something different than the original, that's all. All the real "labour" is already done from the original company that made the game in the first place. I admit I don't know nothing about the "legal" or "illegal" issues surrounding rom hacking. But one thing I do know is that you as "rom hacker" has no rights to anything that your "work" came from if its from a copyrighted commercial game. If you take your work that seriously then you should have made your stuff from scratch instead of modifying copyrighted material. Instead of wanting to chase repro carters with pitchforks, you should be asking if you can get a small cut of the profits if you can, and if they don't want to, what's you gonna do? Complain to Nintendo? Sega? LJN???? THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT. That's the price you pay for this type of "hobby" you're in. Making your "mod" incompatible on real hardware only alienates a section of people that plays with accurate emus or play hacks on Wiis, PS3, PSP DSs. I'm not going to dig out some old, depreciated version of an Emu just to play your hack. I didn't know you even think that way puzzledude. Very disappointed. Bottom line, get off your high-horse and embrace your dark side. |
| Vanya |
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Red Koopa Level: 27 Posts: 111/139 EXP: 105121 Next: 11038 Since: 01-22-13 Last post: 3296 days Last view: 3295 days |
Puzzledude, I'm only going to say this, you are quite mistaken about the legality of romhacking.
The fact that Crimson Echoes was only going to be distributed as a patch and wasn't even out yet didn't stop Square-Enix from sending out C&D letters. And it has never stopped any other companies from doing the same. It doesn't matter if the mod is for private use or not because it must be applied to a ROM and ROMs are not legal. The right to keep a back up is a new aspect of copyright laws that was intended for digital and perishable media. And the attitude of romhackers against repro makers is absurd. What you guys do is no more morally or legally right than what they do. If you really do what you do for the love of it, then what do you care what others do with it? If the copyright holders who have legal right to fight repro carts don't care to then what does your opinion matter when you have no rights to your own work? And make no mistake, when you make a mod for someone else's game without permission the copyright to your mod goes to the owner of the original game's copyright. The smart companies hire the hackers to work for them like what happened with the romhackers who were hired to make the iOS versions of Sonic CD and Sonic 2. Your wishes for the use of your work are just that wishes. Would it be cool of the repro guys respected your wishes? Yes. Would it be cool if hack authors could get a fair cut from the use of your work? Yes. Is any of that going to stop it from happening? No. That is the price you pay for doing what you do. You know what I never hear from romhackers when they complain about repro carts? When did you ask permission from the game creators to distribute a mod of their game? When did you respect their wishes to not have their software modified? That is hypocrisy. ____________________ Krakenskin Leather Works, my Etsy store. LordVanya, my art page. FundamentalEssence, my game development page. |
| Insectduel |
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Hammer Brother Level: 68 Posts: 904/1069 EXP: 2688370 Next: 40430 Since: 02-16-08 From: Insectduel's office Last post: 1260 days Last view: 1259 days |
Since there's this debate going on I am going to put up an example. Imagine a game like Hana Yori Dango on Gameboy is in Japan but no English versions of the game. Then we romhackers are going to translate the game to English. Next, us romhackers decided to distribute the game for profit especially to retail stores. Does it work?
NO! Because the original game is co-authored even we created for something we do, us romhackers will get sued from companies making it a bad name and reputation to our hobbies. So why are we profit something that is already been copyrighted. At least give us a paycut between us and the game companies. Now I know why Tengen got sued for their ports of Tetris after Nintendo started making them including all of their unlicensed games. |
| Main - ROM Hacking - Zelda - The Legend of Link (v3-12-20) Released | New thread | New reply |
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