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Main - Gaming - Dwindling Quality of Zelda Games New thread | New reply


Are the Zelda Games Losing Quality?
Yes
No
Multiple voting is not allowed. Changing your vote is allowed. 7 users have voted so far.

Xeruss
Posted on 02-17-12 02:39 AM Link | Quote | ID: 149898


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I was linked to this article by a friend earlier this week, and I can't help but think the author makes some good points about the direction the games have steadily been taking since shortly after the 3D transition. To date, I still haven't completed Twilight Princess, mostly due to the game feeling like a unidirectional check list of tasks. I'm still excited to at least try Skyward Sword, (if I ever get a Motionplus) but I've heard it suffers from similar flaws. After reading the article, I can't help but think he may have hit on the head why I don't feel strongly about playing the newer Zelda games.

Anyway, I thought I would offer this up to see what everyone else thinks about it. In the mean time, this put me in the mood to play Ice Penguin's Journey of a Day...

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AnAxemRanger
Posted on 02-17-12 05:15 AM Link | Quote | ID: 149905


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I do tend to agree with that guy. I liked it better when there was a massive overworld for you to explore, rather than a large overworld that blocks several parts until you get the item that allows you to move past them. I would like the idea of a newer Zelda that allows you to go anywhere you want, but would have whoever your partner is say, "You shouldn't go that way yet. Well, you can go that way, but you'll get your butt handed to you by the enemies. It's your funeral." I remember the original Zelda where I beat levels 6-8 before finding level 5. I liked the free-roaming, do whatever you want Zelda where the only stipulation was you had to save the final level for last.

Having said that, I will say that I still love every Zelda for the different things it has to offer. Unlike the author of that article, I actually enjoyed the sword's motion controls Skyward Sword had, even if they were somewhat predictable with the "I block horizontally for like 30 seconds. Feel free to attack vertically for that whole time" attitude some enemies had. However, I thought Ghirahim and Demise were pretty epic bosses, as well as fun to fight. Trying to beat the Thunder Dragon's 13 boss fights in a row game was some of the most fun I've had in a Zelda game.

I do tend to agree that older Zeldas were generally better than newer ones. Majora's Mask is still my favorite. Sigh, maybe I'm just getting old.

They need to combine the things that made the older games great, with the things the newer ones do right. I'd love to see 3D dungeons absolutely filled with tough enemies. Imagine fighting hoards of Darknuts and Stalfoses with good 1:1 motion controls! You've got to be good and accurate with your sword swings as well quick on your feet to avoid the other enemies bearing down around you.

I'd also love to see items more focused on combat rather than puzzle solving. Although the puzzle solving is good, I'd like to see other uses for them. Picture the fire rod from A Link to the Past. It had many uses as a puzzle solving item, but was great for various combat situations.

Also I want Zelda games to have more secret items. Picture the Cane of Bryna from a Link to the Past. It was a completely optional item, but it was great in various battle situations. But it drained magic quickly so it wasn't over powered. If you couldn't tell, I consider A Link to the Past to be the highest point of Zelda items.

Well, I'm rambling at this point.
tl;dr - While I do love the new Zeldas and all they have to offer, I will agree that the older ones were better.

Senaye
Posted on 02-17-12 05:58 AM Link | Quote | ID: 149906


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Specifically like LttP. That was probably one of the better ones. Though Windwaker wasn't so bad..I mean, if you took LttP and Windwaker and combined them that would be like...just simply amazing...though what about this...

a Large overworld to explore with little hidden areas that have excess items, like bottles...and stuff. Maybe they could make a new item?

God only knows whats in store for us..but one thing I do know..is that it will always be a true love in my heart.

Lunaria
Posted on 02-17-12 04:35 PM Link | Quote | ID: 150020


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The author of the article seem to imply that the current zelda is not zelda enough. He keeps complaining about wanting an open overworld yet on the same time he praises Zelda 2, which is as linear as a train track. :/

I can understand some of the things he is trying to say, and I sure as hell would want an open overworld where you can go and explore and do things in your order. In fact, that was one of my major selling point with my own ROM hack. (Which was not a Zelda hack.)

But I digress though, the difficulty in zelda 1 and zelda 2 are terrible, at best. Sure, alttp seem terrible easy compared to the first two, but you also have to understand that there was nothing about the set up in the first two games that where good. I have played and beaten both of them, as well as almost all of the second quest in zelda 1, and I can honestly tell several design faults in both.

In the article he proclaims that having to bomb walls without any hints on them was the way to go, in which I can honestly say he have no idea what designing a good game means. Zelda 1 was simple, the only wall sections in the dungeons you could bomb where always in the very center of the wall, making it very easy (costing at max 3 bombs) to check if a room had any secret bomb able walls. Zelda 3 uses a lot more advanced level data in chunk form. Since the screen is auto scrolling and rooms are not the exact same size you no longer had any way to simply check walls without wasting large number of bombs. The developers knew this and where smart, they made some walls show that they where bomb able, other walls where trickier and you had to make use of your sword to check if there was a passage behind the wall. Furthermore, there where cracks in some walls that where not bomb able as well, so it was never a given that a crack in the wall would hold a hidden passage.

Granted though, Zelda 3 is an example where they pulled it of really well; And I have certainly seen worse (AKA way to obvious) things in newer Zelda games. But having to "bomb every tile" as we say in the metroid community (and ironical enough, it make sense in this context as well.) to find the way forward is not a good secret, it's terrible design; You need to have some sort of hint. I can agree with him that their current set up is not good, it's way too obvious, but praising Zelda 1 as the best shit ever does not solve the problem, it just makes you look like a nostalgia freak.

However, the article does make some very good points, many which I have had similar views of myself. The series needs to renew itself and give in to new play mechanics as well as more creative item set up. The hookshot was revolutionary in alttp due to what you could do. But I digress, the items full potential was not reached until OoT where you could use the item in 3D. However, regardless of how much I like the item, seeing it in (mostly) every Zelda game since (in some form or another) have just made it stale.

Regardless of what items I get (or if they are new or not) whenever I enter a puzzle in new zelda games I just look at it and know exactly what to do. SS was just me chugging forward and solving things rather then actually trying to think. Those puzzles I could not find the obvious solution for I solved with some creative thinking instead. For example, in Skyward Sword there is a section where you need to grab a bomb with your flying thingy and drop down on a switch to move forward. The problem was that there where no bombs around. I had gone through the whole area without noticing that there where bombs growing on top of the cacti. I did not notice this until I reached the next puzzle which also needed that mechanic. The first puzzle, however, I got past by using the slingshot and gravity to make the shell fall down the hole instead of a bomb. It was rather tricky, yes, but it was certainly a very interesting experience for me.

I never get dumbfounded like that for puzzles in Zelda games these days, since I know the solution is always very obvious. The think is, regardless what Zelda game you play first, that one will always be great; But the rest will be a lot less interesting. They recycle the concept of puzzles and logic rather then the puzzles and area design themselves. This makes it so that if you have beaten a Zelda game before, you will have very little issues going through the next.

So, while I don't think Zelda games have been declining in quality terribly much (Though I do think Skyward Sword is a big offender in quality going down, but that's for another thread.) it is more an issue of the series not progressing. The statment "don't fix what's not broken" certainly seem to be what they live for, (not that I blame them; it sells games) innovation and creative gameplay is long since dead for this series if you ask me.

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RetroRain
Posted on 02-17-12 07:39 PM (rev. 4 of 02-17-12 07:45 PM) Link | Quote | ID: 150023


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I would have to agree with most of what this guy said. But when you think about it, you can apply what he said to almost any game today. They have no heart. And the handholding has gotten completely out of control. It's ridiculous.

Why do these companies feel they need to jam a game with non-stop dialogue? Even if LTTP had dialogue, it was minimum, and it had no where near the dialogue that some of the later games have. To be blunt, I don't really care about the story of this person I am talking to in the game. Just let me explore and have fun. Everything is so scripted in these later Zelda games, from the characters' movements, to what they say, and what the player has to do.

So I know exactly what this guy is talking about with the later Zeldas. But also what really put me off with the later Zelda games was the cartoon-cell shaded style. It was horrible. I know a lot of people said they like it, but I thought it was un-inspiring, and shit. And cartoon Link was pathetic looking.

They need to make a Zelda game with just gameplay similar to the original game, and then add the story in later. And when they add the story, keep it simple. We don't need paragraphs of what the hell is going on.

That's why I so love the original Zelda. Nothing can beat it. It truly is a masterpiece game.

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Ailure
Posted on 02-21-12 04:11 PM (rev. 2 of 02-21-12 04:14 PM) Link | Quote | ID: 150191

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Posted by AnAxemRanger
I do tend to agree with that guy. I liked it better when there was a massive overworld for you to explore, rather than a large overworld that blocks several parts until you get the item that allows you to move past them.
That describes every Zelda since uh, Zelda II. People have just gotten better at noticing when a game is linear.

Honestly all Zeldas but the very first original games are more or less linear. They allow you to defeat a dungeon in out of order sometimes (like beating Fire Temple before Forest Temple in Ocarina of time) but they're mostly 90% linear. Most of the focus in the games was the dungeons, hell it seems even originally Zelda wasn't even planned to have a overworld, just a dungeon explorer.

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AnAxemRanger
Posted on 02-22-12 04:42 AM Link | Quote | ID: 150233


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Posted by Ailure
Posted by AnAxemRanger
I do tend to agree with that guy. I liked it better when there was a massive overworld for you to explore, rather than a large overworld that blocks several parts until you get the item that allows you to move past them.
That describes every Zelda since uh, Zelda II. People have just gotten better at noticing when a game is linear.

Honestly all Zeldas but the very first original games are more or less linear. They allow you to defeat a dungeon in out of order sometimes (like beating Fire Temple before Forest Temple in Ocarina of time) but they're mostly 90% linear. Most of the focus in the games was the dungeons, hell it seems even originally Zelda wasn't even planned to have a overworld, just a dungeon explorer.


The linearity of the Zelda series didn't happen overnight. Even A Link to the Past and Link's Awakening had explorable overworlds. Sure, the dungeons pretty much had to be done in order, but at least you had the option of getting the dungeon item, and then leaving and going to beat a different dungeon (which was pretty pointless, and more trouble than it's worth, but hey, I liked the option).
But the overworld could still be explored. There were just some obstacles that you couldn't pass until later to keep you from going to places they don't want you going to yet. But even with that, there were things to be discovered, places to go, and even secret items like the ice rod. Heck, nearly all of the Dark World's Death Mountain was pointless except for the two dungeons at the top. But it was still there to be explored.

Although I will agree with you that Zelda games have gotten more and more linear since the first, it has been gradual, not an overnight change. As time has gone by, there has been less and less free roaming in the overworld. Barriers that can only be passed by dungeon items have been becoming more and more common. Now we have games like Phantom Hourglass and Skyward Sword where you have to beat a dungeon to obtain some key item that will actually open up large parts of the world. They're not even trying with free exploration anymore.

But I suppose you're right: the focus of the series has been the dungeons, not the world. Maybe what the Zelda series does now was Nintendo's intent all along.

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