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Please chime in on a proposed restructuring of the ROM hacking sections.
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Celice
Posted on 01-09-12 05:03 AM Link | Quote | ID: 149367


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It's simply because it is - Romhacking in general is an unforgiving landscape for newbies.

I've found this is a very big misconception. What it's actually supposed to be is dicks are going to be dicks. I've always helped others out as much as possible, through some really complex stuff, and down to really straight forward (how to I patch this game?) stuff. I don't think that ROMhacking inherently brings unforgiving members. I think unforgiving members clog up the place and make it unwelcoming. Many people have used their knowledge and capabilities as a sort of ego boost, inflating their sense or worth, and they start to get viciously elitist and prickish. And that too has nothing to with ROMhacking... it's just bad personality traits.

It just sucks that dicks are very loud when they want to be.

RetroRain
Posted on 01-10-12 02:41 AM (rev. 2 of 01-10-12 02:43 AM) Link | Quote | ID: 149414


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Posted by blackhole89
Not sure what there is to gain from hiding the Landfill from the main page...
Think of the landfill as dog shit that is in your backyard, and you are having people come over for a party, and most of the party will be in the backyard. You wouldn't have the shit where people are going to be walking, and you wouldn't want anyone to see it in the first place. Keep the landfill thread, but make it so only people who moderate the board need to see it, so they have a place to deposit bad threads without having to delete them, which would mess up the thread/post counts.

I'm not even sure if there is anything much to gain either, but the point of suggesting that was to keep things positive. Why make it so people can see bad things? Maybe it would hurt the board's image? You only want to show them the good things. Only promote the positive.

It was just a suggestion. Whether it is a good one or not, you guys decide. I'm not sure if it is good or not, just a thought I had.

But yeah, page numbers on the top of the sub-forum pages would be awesome, that way I don't have to scroll all the way down just to click a page number. They already have it that way in threads themselves, so I don't see it being too hard to implement in the sub-forums.

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Hamtaro126
Posted on 01-10-12 08:15 AM Link | Quote | ID: 149419


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Last view: 2315 days 		I didn't say that the site is going away right now,

I was saying that this board was doing very well, I can't count Board2 to be a dead forum at all.

Many apologies for the misinterpretation.

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Xenesis
Posted on 01-10-12 08:21 AM (rev. 2 of 01-10-12 08:22 AM) Link | Quote | ID: 149420


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Posted by Celice
Words.


Yes, exactly. You really need to clean out the dicks regularly and prevent them from becoming people of influence and authority.

Edit: Yay, the https botlinks are gone!

blackhole89
Posted on 01-10-12 04:56 PM Link | Quote | ID: 149425


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Posted by RetroRain
I'm not even sure if there is anything much to gain either, but the point of suggesting that was to keep things positive. Why make it so people can see bad things? Maybe it would hurt the board's image? You only want to show them the good things. Only promote the positive.
Well, at the same time, it seems somewhat dishonest to hide the bad things away completely... it's not like people wouldn't catch on to it if we were trying to present an artificial sugar-coated version of the board.

But yeah, page numbers on the top of the sub-forum pages would be awesome, that way I don't have to scroll all the way down just to click a page number. They already have it that way in threads themselves, so I don't see it being too hard to implement in the sub-forums.
That, I shall look into.

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MiniCompute
Posted on 01-10-12 09:51 PM Link | Quote | ID: 149430


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Yes, I have not been much at all, but off and on I watch this place and the post.
Just like you said black, if there a lack of content or new things being brought to the table, yeah I could see why your in a jam.

Pretty much, its the user end part "If they want" acmlm 2 exist, if they have no need for it and go elsewhere, I would quitely let this board go offline.

I'm for this place seing a new change, and trying to use whatever skills I have to make sure its stable and successfull.


~MikeFuryuken!~

Lunaria
Posted on 01-11-12 02:46 AM (rev. 2 of 01-14-12 12:20 AM) Link | Quote | ID: 149440


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Posted by Celice
It's simply because it is - Romhacking in general is an unforgiving landscape for newbies.

I've found this is a very big misconception. What it's actually supposed to be is dicks are going to be dicks. I don't think that ROMhacking inherently brings unforgiving members. I think unforgiving members clog up the place and make it unwelcoming. It just sucks that dicks are very loud when they want to be.

The problem does not really lie there either though. ROM hacking is pretty darn hard to do, and you need to put down a lot of time and effort both to learn coding low level languages as well as reverse engineering the original games code. But let's face it, we are not really talking about ROM hacking here, so let's move on.

The REAL problem is that game designing and/or development is pretty darn freaking hard. In order to get ANYTHING done you need to have the following skills:

-Will to stick with a project till it's done.
-Learn how to handle hex editing and minor coding. (De-bug and repoint mostly)
-Study design others make and learn from it to produce something unique.
-Having a bunch of time.
-Be willing to give up on a project before it's done and move on the next.

Now before you call me out for being a moron, yes, the first goes straight against the last one. But the thing is, you need to be willing to give up on several projects since you have fundamentally advanced in your skill and it would be a better idea to go on.

Most beginners come in with the wrong interpenetration of what game designing really is about. Nearly every fan of a game will have thought that it would be better/more awesome if X or Y change was made, or, simply: it was longer or had even more. Therefore, people join ROM hacking or fan gaming communities under the impression that they want to make just that.

But like every other form of art, you need to learn how to do it well, and in order to make something truly great, you will have to put in a lot of time and effort.

The problem is that ROM hacking communities takes the brunt of this. Every new designer will want to learn the same thing, but most of them will kick the bucket on projects way too soon. And eventually give up and leave, most without leaving much of anything of worth behind.

Which means ROM hacking communities such as this one rapidly get new people that ask the same thing and a user base which always have to answer the same formatted questions. (Then there are those that just ask others to do work for them, but they can burn in a fire if you ask me.)

That is not to say that helping them is wrong, in fact, if such help was never to be given I, myself, would not sit here today having released a rather popular Super Metroid hack.


I can not, and I never will, justify being rude to beginners. But what you need to be is blunt, forward, and provide functional feedback. Sugar coating the whole deal (coughsmwccough) will only give users a false perspective of what is needed and required to get far anything done.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Back on topic. (I will edit this out into it's own post later)

We will now start listing suggestions on basis as you provide them in short and sweet form so management have something to go by when trying to revive this place. After all, this place is for all of us, not just staff.

(Someone/me will just edit them into this post when added to this thread.)

So far we have:

1. Keeping and focusing on the ROM hacking section.
2. Being nicer to newcomers .
3. More administrative work and action when needed/demanded.
4. More ROM hacking resources.
5. Tighter community.
6. More open community.
7. Being trendy.
8. Next generation ROM hacking.
9. More board gimmicks.
A. Promote friendliness
B. Remove HTTPS on IRC RSS. DONE!
C. Remove unused fora and add new forum/fora when interest exist.
D. Group projects.
E. Advertising.
F. Recruited members. (How?)
10. Programming/ROM hacking workshops.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
...

Note: This is a list of things suggested not a list of things we are implementing.


I'd like to voice out and say that while we are always open to suggestions on how to make this place a better place for you and everyone; It would be nice if suggestions of things you want to see, or otherwise, where posted soon so management can take in all the suggestions and rework what is needed and get shit done.

So please, keep coming with ideas, that is all!

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Nick
Posted on 01-11-12 10:07 AM Link | Quote | ID: 149452


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Posted by MikeFuryXP
Personally, its not time for this version of acmlm to go yet.
Yes, I have not been much at all, but off and on I watch this place and the post.
Just like you said black, if there a lack of content or new things being brought to the table, yeah I could see why your in a jam.

Pretty much, its the user end part "If they want" acmlm 2 exist, if they have no need for it and go elsewhere, I would quitely let this board go offline.

I'm for this place seing a new change, and trying to use whatever skills I have to make sure its stable and successfull.


~MikeFuryuken!~


In that case, my recommendation is for you and your fellow rom-hackers to just keep on using the site like nothing has happened. It seems like there has been a flurry of activity lately related to rom-hacking and I don't know how the actual staff feel, but I think that's a positive thing to me. It seems like we're less bullshit, more cool stuff happening now.

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MathOnNapkins
Posted on 01-11-12 10:04 PM (rev. 3 of 01-11-12 10:52 PM) Link | Quote | ID: 149481


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anonymousbl00dlust
Posted on 01-12-12 07:34 AM (rev. 2 of 01-12-12 07:39 AM) Link | Quote | ID: 149487

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So, I was never really got majorly involved here. I don't really know how proper it is for me to offer suggestions, but having been aware of this place for a very long time, I can offer some reasons why I didn't post here often.

I think the main deterrent IS the fact that there isn't much activity. I've always had the impression that people here know a LOT more about romhacking than your average talkhaus or smwcp user. It's really cool that this place has that: It makes me want to post my work here and get feedback; learn new things. The problem is that, while experience (reputation?) of the userbase got me to check the place out, I felt like I never really got an opportunity to have conversations with people. The volume of posts was just too low.

So there's two ways to look at that. You can either see it as a downward spiral, or you can take the positive outlook. If you manage to get a few people here, growth will be exponential because you'll keep more people as activity grows. Essentially, you need some kind of kick-start to get things moving.

One thing that I think could really help is if you offered workshops. I know smwcp is doing one soon so right now might not be the best time, but considering reputation is what brought me here, I'd say you should take advantage of your strengths. Thing is, you'd have to do that kind of thing on a regular basis. Don't just cause some slight interest and never do it again. There's lots of people who want to get better at romhacking, programming, etc., and board loyalty doesn't really influence that. You can definitely draw people in from other sites, but you have to establish that this place has resources that people will benefit from using. (Try not to take offense to this. I'm not trying to say that your community is a resource that can be 'used', but offering something valuable is a good incentive to attract users. Its pretty much the only reason smwc became what it is today)

I also think starting a group project would be good advertising. Use the current size of your userbase as a strength for now. Its easier to coordinate with a smaller team. Build something really cool, show off some videos, then welcome newcomers to come contribute to it. Yes, tower of spatula ran out of steam. Its thread is also one of the longest ones in the romhacking subforum. I'd say it would be worth trying again.

I hope this helps. You all can totally revive this place if you set your collective minds to it. Good luck!

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that I had to reregister because I forgot my password and accounts aren't linked to email addresses. People don't like loosing their accounts... this is kind of a tertiary thing but it's worth fixing if possible.

MiniCompute
Posted on 01-12-12 10:03 PM Link | Quote | ID: 149494


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Posted by anonymousbl00dlust
Hi there everyone!

So, I was never really got majorly involved here. I don't really know how proper it is for me to offer suggestions, but having been aware of this place for a very long time, I can offer some reasons why I didn't post here often.

I think the main deterrent IS the fact that there isn't much activity. I've always had the impression that people here know a LOT more about romhacking than your average talkhaus or smwcp user. It's really cool that this place has that: It makes me want to post my work here and get feedback; learn new things. The problem is that, while experience (reputation?) of the userbase got me to check the place out, I felt like I never really got an opportunity to have conversations with people. The volume of posts was just too low.

So there's two ways to look at that. You can either see it as a downward spiral, or you can take the positive outlook. If you manage to get a few people here, growth will be exponential because you'll keep more people as activity grows. Essentially, you need some kind of kick-start to get things moving.

One thing that I think could really help is if you offered workshops. I know smwcp is doing one soon so right now might not be the best time, but considering reputation is what brought me here, I'd say you should take advantage of your strengths. Thing is, you'd have to do that kind of thing on a regular basis. Don't just cause some slight interest and never do it again. There's lots of people who want to get better at romhacking, programming, etc., and board loyalty doesn't really influence that. You can definitely draw people in from other sites, but you have to establish that this place has resources that people will benefit from using. (Try not to take offense to this. I'm not trying to say that your community is a resource that can be 'used', but offering something valuable is a good incentive to attract users. Its pretty much the only reason smwc became what it is today)

I also think starting a group project would be good advertising. Use the current size of your userbase as a strength for now. Its easier to coordinate with a smaller team. Build something really cool, show off some videos, then welcome newcomers to come contribute to it. Yes, tower of spatula ran out of steam. Its thread is also one of the longest ones in the romhacking subforum. I'd say it would be worth trying again.

I hope this helps. You all can totally revive this place if you set your collective minds to it. Good luck!

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that I had to reregister because I forgot my password and accounts aren't linked to email addresses. People don't like loosing their accounts... this is kind of a tertiary thing but it's worth fixing if possible.



Let me pick your brain here for a sec...
To actually really jump start this place to a new or becoming project what do you suggest ?

We know smw hacking has been played in and out for so long that quite a few people are tired of it.
It had its long day in the sun, do you suggest board 2 starts really focusing in on smas, sm or any other game that has made atleast enough discoveries to begin fully hacking it ?

I look at the rom hacking section, the least active is zelda 1-3 currently sm at some levels during the years and mainly MM 1-4.
There are others, but its just a lack of motivation like I see at another forum I visit.
We can have all the ideas and agendas in our head to do a game or project, but ask yourself something closely...

How far will you get with a based size hack group that runs out of steam or people have other real life issues to deal with ?

All I can say, is they need to try and push for something until its fully recognizable.

anonymousbl00dlust
Posted on 01-13-12 01:11 AM Link | Quote | ID: 149496

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Posted by MikeFuryXP
Let me pick your brain here for a sec...
To actually really jump start this place to a new or becoming project what do you suggest ?

We know smw hacking has been played in and out for so long that quite a few people are tired of it.
It had its long day in the sun, do you suggest board 2 starts really focusing in on smas, sm or any other game that has made atleast enough discoveries to begin fully hacking it ?

I look at the rom hacking section, the least active is zelda 1-3 currently sm at some levels during the years and mainly MM 1-4.
There are others, but its just a lack of motivation like I see at another forum I visit.
We can have all the ideas and agendas in our head to do a game or project, but ask yourself something closely...

How far will you get with a based size hack group that runs out of steam or people have other real life issues to deal with ?

All I can say, is they need to try and push for something until its fully recognizable.


Well, the benefit of doing a smw project is that lots of people have some amount of experience with it. To attract new people you kind of have to have something that the can actually access. Bringing people into the community should be a priority over the product created from the project.

So no, the optimal solution isn't necessarily a smw romhack, but it has to be something accessible. That most likely means a new or updated editor, and that's expecting a lot.

FAKEEDIT: you could also try doing a project with the smbx engine, but that seems to be neglecting the benefits of this community's experience WITH romhacking.

Lunaria
Posted on 01-13-12 02:23 AM Link | Quote | ID: 149498


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Except, the problem still stands that you can't attract members with an group project, you can only boost activity with it among current members. Like mentioned before, most SMW hackers opt for SMWC.

Not to mention, we tried a SMW group hack before and it kinda failed.

And in all honesty, let's not go around saying SMW is the easiest way to go, it really is not. It may have one of the easiest editors to start up with. But SMW is an object based game, making it a living hell to import and use graphics from anything that does not use the same object structure. Or, I suppose, you could make new objects, but that would be quite a load of work as well. SM (super metroid) on the other hand (as an example) is an tile based game and is a lot easier to work with graphics in.

Not to mention sprite graphics load on-demand rather then pre-designed graphics pages. One may bitch about how hard SMILE is to learn, but it really does exactly what is needed and in a very smooth way.

Lunar magic is very easy to get in with and start up with, and SMILE is very hard. But in the end, how hard the editor is to learn is not really relevant, as you will still have to put down the same effort to actually design your part of the group project. Which, for the record, is where most group projects fail.

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MiniCompute
Posted on 01-13-12 02:59 AM Link | Quote | ID: 149499


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I'm not a programmer, anyone who knows me, this old fool comes to a stand still about programming.
However I do grasp the erroring and debugging issues when dealing with other tech related messes.
Hopefully soon by spring, I'll be able to help along with a rom hack, even if it is just figuring why such object or equation won't load for god knows what!

WE'll see what happens during this season and spring, nothing aint easy and everybiody realizes in many different forms on here.
I'll be back later, reinstalling 32bit of windows 7, damn 64bit has pissed me off for the last time.

anonymousbl00dlust
Posted on 01-14-12 12:12 AM Link | Quote | ID: 149512

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Posted by Green-Kirby
Except, the problem still stands that you can't attract members with an group project, you can only boost activity with it among current members. Like mentioned before, most SMW hackers opt for SMWC.

Not to mention, we tried a SMW group hack before and it kinda failed.

And in all honesty, let's not go around saying SMW is the easiest way to go, it really is not. It may have one of the easiest editors to start up with. But SMW is an object based game, making it a living hell to import and use graphics from anything that does not use the same object structure. Or, I suppose, you could make new objects, but that would be quite a load of work as well. SM (super metroid) on the other hand (as an example) is an tile based game and is a lot easier to work with graphics in.

Not to mention sprite graphics load on-demand rather then pre-designed graphics pages. One may bitch about how hard SMILE is to learn, but it really does exactly what is needed and in a very smooth way.

Lunar magic is very easy to get in with and start up with, and SMILE is very hard. But in the end, how hard the editor is to learn is not really relevant, as you will still have to put down the same effort to actually design your part of the group project. Which, for the record, is where most group projects fail.


That's completely untrue. Take ASMT for example, that project caused the registration of at least 20% of talkhaus's userbase. Also, it doesn't matter how hard said project is to master at editing. The reality is that you want to get as many people attracted to your project as possible, including those with very limited editing/programming experience. You want the barriers to entry to be as minimal as possible, so yeah the editor used is kinda important.

Tower of spatula has one of the largest post counts of any thread in the romhacking section. Regardless of it's success as a project, it generated a lot of forum activity. Also, the reason it lost steam was because it lacked organization and a clear structure. Just because something didn't work once doesn't mean all future attempts aren't worth looking into.

Peeps also seem to be ignoring my first suggestion: programming/romhacking workshops. There's plenty of things that could be done, but everyone seems to just want to add bells and whistles to the forum layout.

Lunaria
Posted on 01-14-12 12:33 AM Link | Quote | ID: 149514


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You're entitled to your opinion. But I think editor and game is the least of our worries as long as there is something available that does what is needed.

The amount of work and effort to actually provide anything worthwhile that can be used in the final product is still a higher quality and experience bar then there is to learning to use an editor.

SMWCP (or how it was named.) is an perfect example of this. From what I have read and seen of the levels actually made for it, the quality standard is surprisingly low. This is obvious and issue that came up with no quality regulation.

It's fine and all if you want to use a group project to infuse activity to a forum. But in all honesty, for me to give any shit about doing one at all, I would want the final product to actually be something enjoyable.

This can obviously be done in SMW as well, I'm not saying it can't. But if people can't even be arsed to make any sort of playable quality on what they add to the project, then how hard the editor is to learn is the least of our issues. In fact, editor and game choice should not even be decided based on editor or how many know it at all, it should be based on what people will want to make and then take the game which would be the easiest to build from.

Another interesting note (if you ask me) is that if we are just doing this to infuse activity, then SMW might even be the worst choice since it already have a very dedicated hacking community (or two).


Also, added your workshop suggestion to my list in an earlier post.

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NightKev
Posted on 01-14-12 12:40 AM Link | Quote | ID: 149515


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You can't really compare ASMT, because the new registrations were probably caused by people who watch raocow's videos. He made a lot of "hey look we're doing a thing!" videos for ASMT/A2MT, and the talkhaus is, y'know, based on him and stuff.

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blackhole89
Posted on 01-14-12 05:28 PM Link | Quote | ID: 149519


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Well, the difference between this place (when it was more active) and SMWC always was that we had quality whereas they had quantity... so really, I'd not be too worried about the levels being up to a certain standard if we do manage to get a sufficient number of them.

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anonymousbl00dlust
Posted on 01-15-12 03:06 AM (rev. 2 of 01-15-12 03:08 AM) Link | Quote | ID: 149528

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Last view: 1867 days 		I think people are failing to understand the entire point I was trying to make. The primary function of forming a group project would be to attract new users to the site via a desire to contribute to it. Quality control is almost a bad thing, because the entire purpose is to bring people in.

Yes, to generate interest, current users of the board would have to start out with something really impressive to make people want to join. However that isn't so much a matter of 'put restrictions on what people can submit' as it is 'do your personal best to submit something really cool'. In other words:

1.start up project, keeping in mind that contibuting to it should be easy. this means a good editor, etc.
2.people already using this board take advantage of their huge amount of experience to submit some really amazing content.
3.spread around said content through youtube videos, screenshot/video threads on other boards; possibly release a short demo
4.new people will see how cool the project is and want to contribute to it. The editor/contributing is easy so they feel comfortable signing up for a level/graphics/etc. spot. Also, since the project's organization is taking place here, people will register and start posting.
5.assimilate everyone
6.???
7.profit

Posted by NightKev
You can't really compare ASMT, because the new registrations were probably caused by people who watch raocow's videos. He made a lot of "hey look we're doing a thing!" videos for ASMT/A2MT, and the talkhaus is, y'know, based on him and stuff.


compare talkhaus to protonjon's board at it's peak (while he was still regularly posting videos). huge difference.

MiniCompute
Posted on 01-15-12 07:40 AM Link | Quote | ID: 149535


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Since: 04-25-07

Last post: 489 days
Last view: 697 days 		Well its been talked over for awhile, and I think the people have posted and will try to do things for this board to make it resurface and recognizble will try to do that.
Until then I say we just start doing what we can and just hope for the best.

If Black decides its curtain time for acmlm 2 he'll let us know with a fake tear drop in his eye while leaving a short entry index.htm page.
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Main - Display Case - We have reached an impasse, and now a wall! New thread | Thread closed

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