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Trax
Posted on 09-05-08 01:44 AM Link | Quote | ID: 89897


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Posted by Kawa
Seriously, Trax. What are you on and where can I get some?

Usually, I'm on serotonine, but you don't need to get it somewhere, you produce it naturally. I keep a bag of chocolates handy all the time in my house...

More seriously, it's not a question whether I'm on something or not. The situation I depicted is obviously pushed to ridicule, but the principle is always the same:

You can not buy money


When someone lends you an amount of money and expect a greater amount in return, this person is buying money...


NightKev
Posted on 09-05-08 01:59 AM Link | Quote | ID: 89900


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Okay Trax, now you're just being stupid.
They do not "buy" money. Also...
Posted by Trax
Yeah, I vaguely heard about it... But since they can create money in it (according to Black Lord), without any counterpart, we have to call it fraud. Just like those who make counterfeited money...
No.


If you put money into a bank, the money no longer belongs to you until you. If you withdraw it later, it might not be the "same" money, since money is money. The bank can do whatever they want with the money they have.

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boingboingsplat
Posted on 09-05-08 04:34 AM Link | Quote | ID: 89904


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Yeah. I talked to my father. He has a degree in Political Science. Basically, when you deposit money, and so does everyone else, the bank has a pretty large amount of money. When somebody takes out a loan, some of this is "rented" out, and they are charged interest. The interest is how the bank actually makes money.

Now, if everybody took out all their money at the same time, there would be problems. For example, when the Great Depression struck, everyone tried to withdraw all their money when the economy started to fail. Since it was all taken out, the bank ran out of money, and many people could not get their money back. I'm sure there is much more restrictions to prevent such occurrences in the current day, but that's the general gist of things.

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Trax
Posted on 09-06-08 01:06 AM Link | Quote | ID: 89946


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Posted by NightKev
Posted by Trax
Yeah, I vaguely heard about it... But since they can create money in it (according to Black Lord), without any counterpart, we have to call it fraud. Just like those who make counterfeited money...
No.

Look. Yes. It's counterfeiting. It's equivalent. Stop bickering like a child. Creating money out of thin air is equivalent to counterfeiting, even if it's in electronic form. Money, by definition, must be the result of a transaction...

If you put money into a bank, the money no longer belongs to you until you. If you withdraw it later, it might not be the "same" money, since money is money. The bank can do whatever they want with the money they have.

When you put money in the bank, it's the bank's duty to give you back the amount whenever you ask for it. That's how it's supposed to work. That's the contract between you and the bank...

But okay, let's suppose they do what they want with the money in your account. What if they lose it? Do they have a debt towards you? Where will they take the money when you come to the counter and ask for the entire content of your account?

Let's go back to "buying money". You're saying that they do something with the money in their client's accounts. What do you think they're doing with it? They lend it? They gamble with it? If they lend it, they ARE buying money, because they expect more money than before, through interests...

Posted by "BoingBoingSplat"
When somebody takes out a loan, some of this is "rented" out, and they are charged interest.

If this is true, it's the equivalent of buying money. Give 100$, expect 105$. You just bought 5$. And nothing was produced in the meanwhile. And the bank made no effort. No work...

Now, if everybody took out all their money at the same time, there would be problems. For example, when the Great Depression struck, everyone tried to withdraw all their money when the economy started to fail. Since it was all taken out, the bank ran out of money, and many people could not get their money back. I'm sure there is much more restrictions to prevent such occurrences in the current day, but that's the general gist of things.

From what I read, this concept is (was) known as the minimum reserve, or "reserve ratio". To the last news, the ratio was at 70:1, which means a bank can lend 70x more money than they have. This is "fantom money". But this is prior to 1994, after what the ratio was simply abolished. This means the banks don't have any restrictions from the law anymore. Nowadays, I think their ratio is somewhere around 180:1. But they could make more or less if they wanted...


GreyMaria
Posted on 09-06-08 01:14 AM Link | Quote | ID: 89948

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Do you even have any idea what you're talking about? I mean jesus you say one thing and then immediately switch to say the opposite next post you make.

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boingboingsplat
Posted on 09-06-08 01:22 AM Link | Quote | ID: 89949


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Posted by "BoingBoingSplat"
When somebody takes out a loan, some of this is "rented" out, and they are charged interest.

If this is true, it's the equivalent of buying money. Give 100$, expect 105$. You just bought 5$. And nothing was produced in the meanwhile. And the bank made no effort. No work...

Erm, what? This really makes sense. How are you "Buying" money while taking out a loan.

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Trax
Posted on 09-06-08 05:41 AM Link | Quote | ID: 89959


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Last view: 2883 days 		No, the other way around. The bank (or any other lender) buys money because they lend 100$, and demand 105$ afterwards. And even worse, they do it with fantom money (stated previously). And you still think it makes sense?

GreyMaria
Posted on 09-06-08 05:44 AM Link | Quote | ID: 89960

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It's a fee for using their money.

You borrow money, you simply have permission to use that money. You have to return the money at some point.

A percentage of the money loaned to you is then added to the balance as a fee for using someone else's money.

That simple enough for you?

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boingboingsplat
Posted on 09-06-08 06:01 AM Link | Quote | ID: 89962


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Posted by Trax
No, the other way around. The bank (or any other lender) buys money because they lend 100$, and demand 105$ afterwards.

Congratulations, you've figured out how loans work.

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Trax
Posted on 09-06-08 08:16 AM Link | Quote | ID: 89972


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It's a fee for using their money.

Their money? How is it theirs? Someone earlier said that it's the bank's clients money they are using. But another one said that money is created at the very moment they lend it to you. In other words, they create money out of nowhere, ping!, and lend it to you, and they charge you interests. No work, no effort, no sweat, no risk.

Now, I ask you a question. If you could create money indefinitely and charge people interest on it, at any rate of your choice, do you think it would be fair for the others?

You borrow money, you simply have permission to use that money. You have to return the money at some point. A percentage of the money loaned to you is then added to the balance as a fee for using someone else's money.

And where this percentage is supposed to come from? You pick it in a money tree? Suppose that the initial 100$ you borrow is real money. The 5$ added to it, as interest, is created from nowhere. It didn't exist before. So where are you supposed to find this 5$?


NightKev
Posted on 09-06-08 08:26 AM Link | Quote | ID: 89975


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Posted by Trax
But okay, let's suppose they do what they want with the money in your account. What if they lose it? Do they have a debt towards you? Where will they take the money when you come to the counter and ask for the entire content of your account?
...They take it from their huge stockpile of money. It's all put into one big "pot" (for lack of a better word), and so it doesn't matter "whose" money they're giving you, BECAUSE MONEY IS MONEY YOU FUCKING TROLL NOW GET OFF THIS BOARD!

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Trax
Posted on 09-06-08 08:34 AM Link | Quote | ID: 89978


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Last view: 2883 days 		Oh?! Now what? Menaces? Is the banking system getting on your nerves that much?
NightKev, tell me something. Is it actually possible that you could be wrong about something?
Do you think doubt is a good thing?

Kawa
Posted on 09-06-08 08:35 AM Link | Quote | ID: 89980


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Trax?
Posted by GlaDOS
You've been wrong about every single thing you've ever done, including this thing.


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NightKev
Posted on 09-06-08 08:39 AM Link | Quote | ID: 89983


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Posted by Trax
NightKev, tell me something. Is it actually possible that you could be wrong about something?
Yes, it is entirely possible. Hell, I've been wrong a lot, and so has everyone else in the world, but damn if I'm wrong now because, unlike you, I haven't been trolling the board for the past week/month (give or take a few days).

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Trax
Posted on 09-06-08 10:32 AM Link | Quote | ID: 89991


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This has SO nothing to do with the current discussion...

I'm inclined to tell you the same thing I told Kawa. If you want to take part in a thread, post something relevant. If you don't want to, go look somewhere else. It's that simple...

boingboingsplat
Posted on 09-06-08 04:31 PM Link | Quote | ID: 89996


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Posted by Trax
It's a fee for using their money.

Their money? How is it theirs? Someone earlier said that it's the bank's clients money they are using. But another one said that money is created at the very moment they lend it to you. In other words, they create money out of nowhere, ping!, and lend it to you, and they charge you interests. No work, no effort, no sweat, no risk.

Now, I ask you a question. If you could create money indefinitely and charge people interest on it, at any rate of your choice, do you think it would be fair for the others?

Once you deposit your money into the bank, its theirs and they can do whatever they want with it. You're account stores how much you're entitled to withdraw from the overall sum.

Posted by Trax
You borrow money, you simply have permission to use that money. You have to return the money at some point. A percentage of the money loaned to you is then added to the balance as a fee for using someone else's money.

And where this percentage is supposed to come from? You pick it in a money tree? Suppose that the initial 100$ you borrow is real money. The 5$ added to it, as interest, is created from nowhere. It didn't exist before. So where are you supposed to find this 5$?

Your daily income.

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GreyMaria
Posted on 09-06-08 07:08 PM Link | Quote | ID: 90000

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Posted by Trax
You borrow money, you simply have permission to use that money. You have to return the money at some point. A percentage of the money loaned to you is then added to the balance as a fee for using someone else's money.

And where this percentage is supposed to come from? You pick it in a money tree? Suppose that the initial 100$ you borrow is real money. The 5$ added to it, as interest, is created from nowhere. It didn't exist before. So where are you supposed to find this 5$?


I just fucking told you, the bank adds it to the amount of money it wants back as a fee for using their money.

The fee exists to stop people from using the bank's money for everything.

What you're saying is like saying that grocers are buying money by marking up their shelves.

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Trax
Posted on 09-07-08 03:01 AM Link | Quote | ID: 90027


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Once you deposit your money into the bank, its theirs and they can do whatever they want with it. You're account stores how much you're entitled to withdraw from the overall sum.

What are they doing with it except buying more money?

Your daily income.

If everyone is in this situation (and it's the case right now), there will be a lack of money at some point. If all the money is created by the banks, then for each 100$ the bank creates, you can only repay 100$, not 105$. We are facing a mathematical impossibility...

I just fucking told you, the bank adds it to the amount of money it wants back as a fee for using their money.

Assuming this is true, they are buying money, then. You must buy 100$ money from them at a price of 105$...

The fee exists to stop people from using the bank's money for everything.

Money exists for the sole purpose of exchanging products. Unless you are a numismatist...

What you're saying is like saying that grocers are buying money by marking up their shelves.

Grocers exchange money for food. They don't buy money...


boingboingsplat
Posted on 09-07-08 03:03 AM Link | Quote | ID: 90028


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EARTH TO TRAX: THE BANK DOES NOT MAKE THE MONEY.

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Trax
Posted on 09-07-08 04:55 AM Link | Quote | ID: 90034


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Last view: 2883 days 		Where does money come from, then? Black Lord said the opposite a few posts ago. And even if we assume they use the clients' money (which is probably not true), they are still making money with fantom money, which should be considered illegal...
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