Points of Required Attention™
Please chime in on a proposed restructuring of the ROM hacking sections.
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Main - Help/Suggestions/Bug Reports - Suggestion: do something New thread | Thread closed

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Xkeeper
Posted on 07-07-07 08:07 PM Link | Quote | ID: 52990


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Posted by Ailure
I like blackhole's method better.

Why having stuff in separate tables when they contain the same data? :/

A good example is keeping backups.

Would you want to keep old versions of your files in the same spot? Personally, I move them somewhere (/old, /backups, whatever)...

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Madman200
Posted on 07-07-07 08:08 PM Link | Quote | ID: 52991


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Last view: 4458 days 		The revisions are Edits. With blackhole's method, you have to sort through all the wreckage to find the most recent revision of a post. With XKeeper's method, all outdated revisions are in a trash folder, while the latest post revisions are in their own folder.


DarkSlaya
Posted on 07-07-07 08:10 PM Link | Quote | ID: 52994


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Posted by Ailure
I like blackhole's method better.

Why having stuff in separate tables when they contain the same data? :/ That's just stupid.


The question is, what is the benefit of keeping it all in the same table?

As Xk said, backups.

(and the working with that kind of stuff all in the same table is hell)

Ailure
Posted on 07-07-07 08:13 PM Link | Quote | ID: 52997

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Posted by Xkeeper
There's a lot I could say to that, like "you're a suckup"/many things, but hm
Now you're just being childish.

The backup reason is stupid. Just backup the whole DB now and then, I don't think it's any safer to have the stuff in separate tables.

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Kattwah
Posted on 07-07-07 08:16 PM Link | Quote | ID: 52998


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Posted by Ailure
The backup reason is stupid. Just backup the whole DB now and then, I don't think it's any safer to have the stuff in separate tables.
That is not what he means.

What gets displayed to the board? Posts.

Why should edits of the post be in the table that displays posts if the edits are not going to be displayed in the first place?

Why not put the edits somewhere else so they can be called on when needed. (Which they usually arent)

Its all about organization Ailure. Learn some.

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Xkeeper
Posted on 07-07-07 08:16 PM Link | Quote | ID: 52999


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Posted by Ailure
Posted by Xkeeper
There's a lot I could say to that, like "you're a suckup"/many things, but hm
Now you're just being childish.

The backup reason is stupid. Just backup the whole DB now and then, I don't think it's any safer to have the stuff in separate tables.
Protip: Notice that
* It was commented out
* I provided an actual reason why I think you're wrong

Rather than cop out, I provided reasons against you.

But whatever.

Ailure is missing the point of the feature.

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Ailure
Posted on 07-07-07 08:17 PM Link | Quote | ID: 53001

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Posted by Kattwah
Its all about organization Ailure. Learn some.
Pulling out the latest revision with SQL isn't really that hard.

I fail to see how much it helps organization. :/

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Kattwah
Posted on 07-07-07 08:18 PM (rev. 2 of 07-07-07 08:19 PM) Link | Quote | ID: 53004


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Posted by Ailure
Posted by Kattwah
Its all about organization Ailure. Learn some.
Pulling out the latest revision with SQL isn't really that hard.

I fail to see how much it helps organization. :/
Not organization on the code side.

Organization on the human side.

What would you rather do, look through a box of all your photos for your most recent one, sifting through old pictures of you, or go straight to a box containing ONLY your recent photos?

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Madman200
Posted on 07-07-07 08:20 PM (rev. 2 of 07-07-07 08:21 PM) Link | Quote | ID: 53006


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Posted by Ailure
I fail to see how much it helps organization. :/
It's Pre-Organized.
It doesn't waste time looking at out-dated posts.

You wouldn't pile every single magazine you have into one stack, would you?
Of course not. It'd fall over.
...I mean, you'd pile up the ones you'll be looking at, then put the rest in storage so you don't have to sift through them.


Ailure
Posted on 07-07-07 08:21 PM (rev. 2 of 07-07-07 08:22 PM) Link | Quote | ID: 53007

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Do you have any experience with SQL at all?

With SQL, you can magically pick out photos with certain context. And personally I hate dividing everything into seperate tables on DB's unless it's necessary from a functionality standpoint.

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Xkeeper
Posted on 07-07-07 08:22 PM Link | Quote | ID: 53009


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Last view: 2803 days 		Let me help:

HUMAN READABILITY

IS NOT

CODE READABILITY


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Kattwah
Posted on 07-07-07 08:26 PM Link | Quote | ID: 53010


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Posted by Xkeeper
Win
Yep.

Ailure, it doesnt matter how powerful the code language is, or how magically you can do anything.

If the person using it cant read it, and the organization at the database end doesnt make sense, what's the point?

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Ailure
Posted on 07-07-07 08:29 PM Link | Quote | ID: 53013

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Posted by Xkeeper
Let me help:

HUMAN READABILITY

IS NOT

CODE READABILITY
Boy that's so mature.

No wonder why you and blackhole come in conflict with each other if you keep getting into a fucking shouting match. I only said I agreed with blackhole and everyone started jumping on me.

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blackhole89
Posted on 07-07-07 08:29 PM Link | Quote | ID: 53014


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I have to object. To give you a little bit of an introduction of Acmlmboard database design,

There are two tables, "posts" and "posts_text". "posts" contains an ID, the thread ID, timestamp and the like; "posts_text" contains, again, the ID and the contents of the post. The reasons for this system being introduced are very obscure, since, up to the point where I used this split to implement post editing in an actually meaningful way, each "posts" entry was mapped to exactly one "posts_text" entry, forcing the user to span one more table in the query, thus adding a lot of unnecessary overhead to retrieving posts.

Now, it was quite natural to add some kind of actual purpose to that system; this was, to a sufficient extent, done by keeping the "posts" table as a key to the posts while pooling all data that is referenced in "posts_text". You could comparing this to having a block of memory and a set of pointers pointing to the locations the data you look for is at, which is known to be a sufficiently efficient system.

As for Xkeeper's solution, it would involve creating a second table where, essentially, the same kind of data is stored. It would not only retain the lack of point in the posts/posts_text system but also further unnecessarily complicate the database design. The way you propose would be not a thought through change - it would be a hack. Sure, it would be more simple for you to implement. People followed that thought pattern before - Jesper did, you did, most of those who messed with the 1.x series did - that was one of the main reasons why it, in the end, was abandoned.

On another note, I have come to hear that you removed Ailure's moderator status for his support of my proposal in this thread. From how it looks, you are seeking to further signalize how you will deal with criticism of your positions or support of opposing ones. In fact, I am very positive that, if it wasn't for my status as the server hoster giving me a bit of safety, this very post would get me banned. It seems like, when all else fails, populism and chilling effects is how you seek to back yourself up.

I am very incontent with the way you have been leading this community lately.


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Ailure
Posted on 07-07-07 08:30 PM Link | Quote | ID: 53015

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I'm considering to leave.

XK is the new Jesper, the new ||bass. It's his decision, his board. Not community.

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Kawa
Posted on 07-07-07 08:31 PM (rev. 2 of 07-07-07 08:34 PM) Link | Quote | ID: 53017


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DRAMA BAD, M'KAY?

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misterj
Posted on 07-07-07 08:33 PM Link | Quote | ID: 53018


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Last view: 4877 days 		as far as i know ailure, bh89 owns this server. you're fine sucking up to him. he's higher on the command than xkeeper. don't worry, just keep brown nosing. you're doing great.

Xkeeper
Posted on 07-07-07 08:34 PM Link | Quote | ID: 53020


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Posted by blackhole89
On another note, I have come to hear that you removed Ailure's moderator status for his support of my proposal in this thread.
I'm busy processing the rest of the post, but I needed to get this bullshit taken care of asap.

*105420» @laptuna> ~power 66 0
Ailure's first "I support bh89's idea" post: 11:04:54

I had actually demodded him before (silently sure, but because "there's no point to having him as a local mod, he does nothing), he was re-LMed when I woke up.

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Kawa
Posted on 07-07-07 08:35 PM Link | Quote | ID: 53021


CHIKKN NI A BAAZZKIT!!!
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* places a tick mark next to "unrelated things being misunderstood" on his list *

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Xkeeper
Posted on 07-07-07 08:50 PM Link | Quote | ID: 53024


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Posted by blackhole89
I have to object. To give you a little bit of an introduction of Acmlmboard database design,

There are two tables, "posts" and "posts_text". "posts" contains an ID, the thread ID, timestamp and the like; "posts_text" contains, again, the ID and the contents of the post. The reasons for this system being introduced are very obscure, since, up to the point where I used this split to implement post editing in an actually meaningful way, each "posts" entry was mapped to exactly one "posts_text" entry, forcing the user to span one more table in the query, thus adding a lot of unnecessary overhead to retrieving posts.
I thought the posts_text seperation was silly myself and asked about it. I rember reading something about keeping metadata an actual content seperate, but regardless.

Now, it was quite natural to add some kind of actual purpose to that system; this was, to a sufficient extent, done by keeping the "posts" table as a key to the posts while pooling all data that is referenced in "posts_text". You could comparing this to having a block of memory and a set of pointers pointing to the locations the data you look for is at, which is known to be a sufficiently efficient system.

~


As for Xkeeper's solution, it would involve creating a second table where, essentially, the same kind of data is stored. It would not only retain the lack of point in the posts/posts_text system but also further unnecessarily complicate the database design. The way you propose would be not a thought through change - it would be a hack. Sure, it would be more simple for you to implement. People followed that thought pattern before - Jesper did, you did, most of those who messed with the 1.x series did - that was one of the main reasons why it, in the end, was abandoned.

It would not be a hack... to me. Your "additions" are, to me, hacks. To you, they are simply new features. Your idea of a hack and my idea are conflicting, and to call one a hack versus the other is nothing.

I find your ideas to not be well thought out and inherantly flawed. Case in point, the online user flags -- I've already discussed that matter with you and haven't gotten the motivation to fix another problem with your code.

And I appreciate it, by the way -- Jesper and friends coded for the least effort solution, piling hack after hack onto a broken codebase. Why create a new feature when you can just add some silly hooks to it and call it brand new? Many of their features were broken or badly flawed, as shown many times before.

On another note, I have come to hear that you removed Ailure's moderator status for his support of my proposal in this thread. From how it looks, you are seeking to further signalize how you will deal with criticism of your positions or support of opposing ones. In fact, I am very positive that, if it wasn't for my status as the server hoster giving me a bit of safety, this very post would get me banned. It seems like, when all else fails, populism and chilling effects is how you seek to back yourself up.
I already diffused part of this drama bomb, here's the rest of it.

Quite simply, I would not have you as coder of the board if you weren't hosting it. I have no problems with your existance and quite often find you useful and informative, but this is not one of those times. I know I am unfair when it comes to administration power, but it is to be somewhat expected; I try not to ban too often lately as I have noticed these flaws, but it is very difficult to strike the correct balance between too harsh and too leniant, and erring on either side is very bad.

I am very incontent with the way you have been leading this community lately.
I am very incontent with the way you have been coding this forum lately. Acmlm has, too (as well as our deveopment in general), but he has specifically stated that your edit post feature is exactly one of the reasons he stopped.


Disclaimer: I know there are other reasons, such as general non-him development and RO addictions, but this is a very specific example he gave me a while ago.

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