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11-01-24 12:33 AM
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Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Gay Fairy Tale... New poll | |
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NSNick

Gohma
IF ALL ELSE
FAILS USE FIRE
BOOZE








Since: 11-17-05
From:

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Posted on 04-26-06 05:57 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Silvershield
Originally posted by max
well if only straight love stories are being read in school, then morality is being taught. only showing one side of something is a very strong bias.
No, because heterosexuality is the "norm" and, as such, acts as a sort of control group. It describes the overwhelming majority of America's population and, even so, appears as a neutral rather than an influence in one direction or the other. However, since the homosexual issue has yet to be settled here in America, it is still politically charged (as was pointed out earlier) and so it carries with it the sense of a teacher imposing a political or moral standard on his students.

Should only things with white people in them be read then? Because that's the "norm"?
Skydude

Armos Knight








Since: 02-18-06
From: Stanford, CA

Last post: 6738 days
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Posted on 04-26-06 06:24 PM Link | Quote
I think you both missed quite a bit of the thrust of my argument, which SS explained in greater detail.

To max, no, it's not like saying that. I'm not saying that people can't take a stand for anything, I'm saying that teachers shouldn't be foisting their morals on their students in contentious issues of morality, which this currently is in the US.

To NSN, again, it's not just that it's the norm, it's the norm of a rather contentious issue. Kids need to know about it, they need to discuss it, etc...but their parents are better to discuss the morals with than a politically-minded teacher. As I was telling Arwon last night on AIM, I would be just as upset with an overtly anti-homosexual book being read by teachers.
Sinfjotle
Lordly? No, not quite.








Since: 11-17-05
From: Kansas

Last post: 6466 days
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Posted on 04-26-06 07:29 PM Link | Quote
Why is it an issue of morality though? Why can't it just be a fact of life like everything else is. It is certainly morally wrong for children to be taught that women are powerless, but pleanty of fairy tales show them as powerless rewards.
Silvershield

580








Since: 11-19-05
From: Emerson, New Jersey

Last post: 6477 days
Last view: 6465 days
Posted on 04-26-06 07:31 PM Link | Quote
And, for the record, these kids are in third grade. They are seven years old. If you want to push your political views on your students, at least let them grow to a less impressionable age. That is one of my bigger gripes with this whole issue.
Ziff
B2BB
BACKTOBASICSBITCHES


 





Since: 11-18-05
From: A room

Last post: 6465 days
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Posted on 04-26-06 07:34 PM Link | Quote
But when she kissed the frog, he turned into prince charming.

I guess when people who are into zoophilia starting making waves that one will be out the window.

When someone wants infantalism recognized Love You Forever will be gone.

Perhaps we should pull Clow Arounds from class rooms because some people might be sexually aroused by that sort of thing...and what if that becomes a political issue.
Skydude

Armos Knight








Since: 02-18-06
From: Stanford, CA

Last post: 6738 days
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Posted on 04-26-06 08:30 PM Link | Quote
If those become huge political issues, we might see those things, and depending on the nature of the movement, I may or may not support that.

At the moment, at least, they're not, so no harm, no foul.
Ziff
B2BB
BACKTOBASICSBITCHES


 





Since: 11-18-05
From: A room

Last post: 6465 days
Last view: 6465 days
Posted on 04-26-06 09:00 PM Link | Quote
Then all fairy tales concerning straight marriage need to stop being read too, it would only be fair that way. Because it isn't just gay that's being politicized here, it's opponents are politicizing their own sexualities in order to justify and stand by their positions.
drjayphd

Torosu
OW! BURNY!








Since: 11-18-05
From: CT

Last post: 6468 days
Last view: 6465 days
Posted on 04-27-06 03:48 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Silvershield
And, for the record, these kids are in third grade. They are seven years old. If you want to push your political views on your students, at least let them grow to a less impressionable age. That is one of my bigger gripes with this whole issue.


Not unlike sodas, hypotheticals RULE! (I'm certain that SS won't respond the way I'm expecting, because he's a decent and intelligent guy. But this is all about pushing stereotypes which aren't true, riiight?)

Let's say some enterprising elementary-school students start up their very own Bible Club, complete with all the trappings of this one. Presumably, a faculty member would probably be quite involved. That would be just as bad if they were pushing a narrow-minded, irritating branch of Christianity (emphasis on BRANCH!) on their students, yes? (I'm fairly certain SS will say it is, but those who wouldn't seem to be the ones who'd come to mind.)

Essentially, the point is "is the problem that they're pushing something or that they're promoting something you don't agree with?" Which assumes a lot that just isn't necessarily the case.

I do wish the beat-you-upside-the-head theocrats would read more than just one book of the Bible.
Skydude

Armos Knight








Since: 02-18-06
From: Stanford, CA

Last post: 6738 days
Last view: 6738 days
Posted on 04-27-06 12:51 PM Link | Quote
Well, there's a difference, I think, between a club organized by the students, and something the teacher is reading to the entire class. In the former case, the teacher isn't pushing anything on the students, they're choosing to be involved, and presumably their parents know they're involved as well. The problem is not a teacher being involved in moral teaching...the problem is a teacher deciding to push his/her morality on the students without the parents having any say in the matter.

Edit: didn't read the link before...it doesn't really say clearly what the students are actually doing, so I can't really give an opinion on that.


(edited by Skydude on 04-27-06 11:53 AM)
Sinfjotle
Lordly? No, not quite.








Since: 11-17-05
From: Kansas

Last post: 6466 days
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Posted on 04-27-06 01:37 PM Link | Quote
You bring morality up again when the general populace in that state already decided it was perfectly fine. It isn't morality, the teacher is using a fairy tale to show them what it is like in the state they live in for some people.
Skydude

Armos Knight








Since: 02-18-06
From: Stanford, CA

Last post: 6738 days
Last view: 6738 days
Posted on 04-27-06 03:18 PM Link | Quote
No, they decided they were alright with gay marriage. They didn't decide they were alright with the teacher teaching that morality.

For an example on the other side of the spectrum, Texas supports the death penalty. Would it be alright if teachers read kids stories in support of that without the parents' consent?
Silvershield

580








Since: 11-19-05
From: Emerson, New Jersey

Last post: 6477 days
Last view: 6465 days
Posted on 04-27-06 04:06 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by drjayphd
Not unlike sodas, hypotheticals RULE! (I'm certain that SS won't respond the way I'm expecting, because he's a decent and intelligent guy. But this is all about pushing stereotypes which aren't true, riiight?)

Let's say some enterprising elementary-school students start up their very own Bible Club, complete with all the trappings of this one. Presumably, a faculty member would probably be quite involved. That would be just as bad if they were pushing a narrow-minded, irritating branch of Christianity (emphasis on BRANCH!) on their students, yes? (I'm fairly certain SS will say it is, but those who wouldn't seem to be the ones who'd come to mind.)

Essentially, the point is "is the problem that they're pushing something or that they're promoting something you don't agree with?" Which assumes a lot that just isn't necessarily the case.

I do wish the beat-you-upside-the-head theocrats would read more than just one book of the Bible.
Your prediction is right . If a bunch of kids start up some sort of organization that promotes any sort of specific belief - and if a faculty member supports it - it becomes an issue. I'm not really sure if the students themselves, organizing themselves without any sort of adult moderator, should be broken up though. I'd lean toward no, but either side could be argued I guess.
Tommathy









Since: 11-17-05
From: Cloud Nine, Turn Left and I'm There~

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Posted on 04-27-06 05:46 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Skydude
No, they decided they were alright with gay marriage. They didn't decide they were alright with the teacher teaching that morality.

For an example on the other side of the spectrum, Texas supports the death penalty. Would it be alright if teachers read kids stories in support of that without the parents' consent?


Well, yeah, Little Red Ridinghood, the wolf gets the death penalty.
Arwon

Bazu


 





Since: 11-18-05
From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia

Last post: 6466 days
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Posted on 04-28-06 03:36 AM Link | Quote
And the witch in Hansel and Gretel.

Vigilante justice, even.
Skydude

Armos Knight








Since: 02-18-06
From: Stanford, CA

Last post: 6738 days
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Posted on 04-28-06 04:05 AM Link | Quote
In all fairness, those don't really count as the death penalty since those people weren't executed so much as killed in self-defense.
Tommathy









Since: 11-17-05
From: Cloud Nine, Turn Left and I'm There~

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Posted on 04-28-06 04:27 AM Link | Quote
Sleeping Beauty was a death sentence commuted to eternal slumber with possibility of pardon.
Arwon

Bazu


 





Since: 11-18-05
From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia

Last post: 6466 days
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Posted on 04-28-06 12:27 PM Link | Quote
The Three Little Pigs promotes vegetarianism.
Deleted User
Banned


 





Since: 05-08-06

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Posted on 05-05-06 10:05 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Bio
you know, when you're young and you go at school , religious sometime come and say that if you don't do what they say you will go to hell, they keep scaring you like shit with hell(wich the bible never refer to BTW) only to make sure you follow their religion.


What the hell kind of school did you go to? We never had religious people come in and say "if you don't do what they say you will go to hell".

Also, on the subject of the bible referring to Hell or not...

Originally posted by Matthew 5:29
If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It
is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to
be thrown into hell.

Well damn, there's one right there.

Originally posted by Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the
soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in
hell.

Well shit, look, there's "hell" again!

Originally posted by Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my
church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Not exactly hell, but close.

Originally posted by Matthew 23:15
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one,
you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Hmm!

Originally posted by 23:33
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned
to hell?

...!
Too lazy to copy and paste the rest: Bible Verses - Selected Topics in the Bible - "Hell"
Passages about Hell in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament)

I'm lazy, and these were just a few of the results that popped up on Google, so heh. But yeah, hell's definitely in the bible. =\

Ok, so I guess I should weigh in on the topic. You know,as long as they aren't doing anything implicitly sexual, I don't object to their presence, provided it's done so for the sake of the story, and not that of pushing some kind of agenda.
Deleted User
Banned


 





Since: 05-08-06

Last post: None
Last view: 6465 days
Posted on 05-05-06 12:26 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Bio
you know, when you're young and you go at school , religious sometime come and say that if you don't do what they say you will go to hell, they keep scaring you like shit with hell(wich the bible never refer to BTW) only to make sure you follow their religion.



...if it is actual people judging others...

...then they can't claim that they have God or say that they are christian, because whoever judges, will be judged his/herself... Christians are NOT supposed to judge, they are only supposed to direct, and tell them what is says in the bible, but the convictions of God are what's needed to be watched out for, not everyone saying: "you're going to hell because you don't believe a, b, or c". ... the sad thing is a lot of christians can do that... I try not to... even though I don't believe in homosexuality... but I won't go flame-crazy... I'm just going to keep it cool and calm guys... and have a rather mature discussion with you guys...
Tommathy









Since: 11-17-05
From: Cloud Nine, Turn Left and I'm There~

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Posted on 05-05-06 04:38 PM Link | Quote
...while you talk... like... Captain Kirk... or someone... trying to hold a conversation... while their mouth is... otherwise engaged... *cough*

So, anyways, the original question, was the teacher correct in reading such a story or not? What gives the story more or less, umm, propiety, I suppose, than, say, Cinderella, Rapunzel, Snow White, Amedlia Bedilia, or the Stinky Cheese Man?
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