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| 0 users currently in Hardware / Software. |
| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - Hardware / Software - Apple announces MacBook Pro |
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HyperHacker Star Mario Finally being paid to code in VB! If only I still enjoyed that. <_< Wii #7182 6487 4198 1828                    Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada, w00t! My computer's specs, if anyone gives a damn. STOP TRUNCATING THIS >8^( Last post: 6328 days Last view: 6328 days |
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Originally posted by ||bassOriginally posted by HyperHackerIt only comes with drivers for hardware that comes with a factory stock mac but, there's nothing to stop 3rd party developers from writing drivers. In the next few months, I'd expect a slew of drivers coming from all the different hardware manufacturers. Yes, but like Tarale said, a company writing them would most likely be illegal, and a bunch of hackers writing them without the source or (likely) any documentation probably isn't good for stability. (With Windows and Linux it's different because you get official devkits, and in Linux's case source code. I doubt Apple will offer these, at least not for free.) |
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||bass Administrator  Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6329 days Last view: 6327 days |
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| No! That is flat out FALSE. There is nothing ilegal about a company writing the drivers through ANY method. Even if they reverse engineered parts of OSX in order to product their drivers, as long as their drivers don't contain OSX source code (which they wouldn't) it would still be perfectly legal. | |||
Tarale    2710 Affected by 'Princess Bitch-Face Syndrome' ++++!! Persona non grata Since: 11-17-05 From: Adelaide, Australia Last post: 6327 days Last view: 6327 days |
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| I didn't say whether it was legal or not.
I said that Apple may have (or pursue) a case in requesting that these companies cease and desist. Apple have been known to aggressively pursue things that have upset them through legal avenues before, and I don't expect that Apple will sit back quietly and allow this to happen without any action. Since the announcement of the switch to Intel last year, Apple have repeatedly stated that they will not allow OS X to be run on regular PC's and there have been many different types of protection put in place by Apple in an attempt to prevent this. Personally I'd be surprised if we don't see both technological and legal methods used by Apple to try to ensure that OS X is kept to the Macintosh platform. How legal or illegal something is doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether a company will sue for damages, send cease-and-desist letters, etc. |
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HyperHacker Star Mario Finally being paid to code in VB! If only I still enjoyed that. <_< Wii #7182 6487 4198 1828 Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada, w00t! My computer's specs, if anyone gives a damn. STOP TRUNCATING THIS >8^( Last post: 6328 days Last view: 6328 days |
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||bass: Even if Apple doesn't want them released?  Really I was thinking more like Tarale said, it may not actually be illegal but they could still get in trouble for it. |
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||bass Administrator Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6329 days Last view: 6327 days |
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| Yes, even if Apple doesn't want them released. As long as the drivers didn't contain code owned by Apple (I dont see why they would) there is nothing ilegal about them and Apple would have no grounds to file a claim of any kind. They wouldn't persue any case when their lawyers informed them they had no grounds, and if they did, a judge would promptly dismiss the charges.
ON THE OTHER HAND, while drivers that would allow OSX to run on normal PC hardware would be perfectly legit and untouchable, software to TRICK OSX into installing onto "unapproved systems" probably could be argued as ilicit under provisions 2 and 3 of the DMCA . Drivers? Yes. Installer patches? No. |
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HyperHacker Star Mario Finally being paid to code in VB! If only I still enjoyed that. <_< Wii #7182 6487 4198 1828 Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada, w00t! My computer's specs, if anyone gives a damn. STOP TRUNCATING THIS >8^( Last post: 6328 days Last view: 6328 days |
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Interesting, though I imagine some drivers might have to soft-patch things anyway. 
Is it not illegal to release games for a Nintendo system without Nintendo's approval, even if they don't contain any copyrighted code or resources? How, then, is it different than writing drivers that allow OSX to do things Apple doesn't want it to do? |
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||bass Administrator Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6329 days Last view: 6327 days |
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| With older nintendo games? No, it wasn't ilegal. Some old cartrages would use a voltage spike to freak out the 10NES chip (though now under article 2-3 of the DMCA it might be a different story). Nintendo's trick nowadays is simple. The data block necissary to boot new nintendo games contains a bitmap of the nintendo logo. Since it wont boot without that datablock, and that datablock contains a trademarked image, they can nail unlicenced designers for improper use of a trademark.
Drivers are different, all a driver does is interface a OS kernel with a peice of hardware, it does so without bypassing any kind of security. That's the catch here. As long as the software doesn't bypass a built in security measure, there is no legal recourse. One thing Apple might consider doing is requiring all drivers to have a digital certificate with Apple as the certifying authority and just REFUSE to use them otherwise. That way, in order to make a working driver they would have to either A: provide a false certificate in order to circumvent a protection (article 2-3 DMCA violation) or they could just release it with no certificate which would get them off the hook and the driver would be ok. The problem then is that the driver wouldn't install without a 3rd party tool to force OSX to install the driver without a certificate in which case that 3rd party tool would be DMCA article 2-3. As long as your aren't circumventing a protection, it's perfectly legal. If OSX blindly uses any driver without checking if its "approved" they only have themselves to blame. Doing something like requiring drivers to have a 1kb header containing the Apple logo would protect them. |
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HyperHacker Star Mario Finally being paid to code in VB! If only I still enjoyed that. <_< Wii #7182 6487 4198 1828 Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada, w00t! My computer's specs, if anyone gives a damn. STOP TRUNCATING THIS >8^( Last post: 6328 days Last view: 6328 days |
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Originally posted by ||bass Well I'll be damned. So all those old NES pirates (that weren't just hacks or Mario in some made-up game) were legal? I knew about the logo trick though (even Gameboy uses it  ). |
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||bass Administrator Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6329 days Last view: 6327 days |
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| Most of them were ok AT THE TIME. Though now it might be a different story. The only ones nintendo every really went after was Tengen because they got the 10NES chip designs from the US patent office and used them to get around the protection. Nintendo nailed them for improper use of patent information.
On a side note, nintendo later released a new NES, a top-loader system that didn't have the 10NES chip. Even under today's more restrictive copyright laws, since this newer NES doesn't have any kind of protection, it would be perfectly legal. Those unlicensed games on the origional NES? They WOULD be ilegal today under the DMCA because they circumvent a protection. |
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Tarale 2710 Affected by 'Princess Bitch-Face Syndrome' ++++!! Persona non grata Since: 11-17-05 From: Adelaide, Australia Last post: 6327 days Last view: 6327 days |
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| Ah, I just learned something new.
The MacBook Pro and the new Intel iMac don't have a BIOS. (although for that matter, neither do the old PPC ones; they have something called Open Firmware instead) They use Intel's Extensible Firmware Interface. So at the moment while Apple give their blessing for you to run Windows on a Mac, no version of Windows will run natively.... Vista will work with it though. The 64 bit version of XP supports EFI, however it's not compatible with the Intel Core Duo in the Mac, so that's ruled out too. So yeah, you can't natively run Windows on a new Mac. Yet. (edited by Tarale on 01-12-06 05:52 PM) |
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DarkPhoenix Red Goomba Since: 12-27-05 Last post: 6332 days Last view: 6332 days |
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| Speaking of "Things your operating system's developers/hardware manufacturers don't want you to do" and EFI, as it's part of the framework for implementing Trusted Computing, does anyone know of any indication as to whether or not Apple has any interest in Trusted Computing themselves? | |||
Ailure Mr. Shine I just want peace...  Since: 11-17-05 From: Sweden Last post: 6328 days Last view: 6327 days |
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| After some searching around, Linux will and should support EFI fine with the right bootloaders. It's speculated that Windows XP might load even without BIOS, but with a Linux bootloader but I somehow doubt that might work. | |||
Kasumi-Astra Flurry Since: 11-18-05 From: Sheffield England Last post: 6327 days Last view: 6327 days |
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| Non Nintendo approved games for the NES were forced out of production through good ol' Nintendo hard-line bussiness practices. They would put the squeeze on any magazine that would sell advertising space to third party developers that released games that didn't fit and never looked for Nintendo's approval. Because magazines couldn't survive without news tid-bits and review copies of games, magazines eventually caved in to appease Nintendo. Anyone who thinks Nintendo has always been a good ol' friendly company are in for a shock.
Back on topic, my 20" iMac Core Duo is tipped to arrive Tuesday. Hurrah! (Sorry ||Bass, I couldn't resist. I'm weak ) |
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Tarale 2710 Affected by 'Princess Bitch-Face Syndrome' ++++!! Persona non grata Since: 11-17-05 From: Adelaide, Australia Last post: 6327 days Last view: 6327 days |
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| Let us know how quick Rosetta is.
I'm going to wait and get a MacBook Pro. Mostly because I have to. Financial issues (which I have discussed on my blog) mean that even if I did buy it now, I might not be able to keep it.  |
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||bass Administrator Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6329 days Last view: 6327 days |
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| I still don't know if this is going to ultimately help or hurt Apple.
On the plus side, the mac will finally be using x86 PC hardware which has long been proven superior to mac hardware. On the minus side, putting their OS onto standard PC hardware is now EASY. Macs as a full computer system may be going the way of the dino. MacOS MIGHT end up being a PC competition OS to Windows. |
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HyperHacker Star Mario Finally being paid to code in VB! If only I still enjoyed that. <_< Wii #7182 6487 4198 1828 Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada, w00t! My computer's specs, if anyone gives a damn. STOP TRUNCATING THIS >8^( Last post: 6328 days Last view: 6328 days |
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Hey, I might just buy an Apple laptop if I can dual-boot OSX and WinXP on it.  |
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||bass Administrator Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6329 days Last view: 6327 days |
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| Supposedly XP won't install/run properly on the Apple Intel machines because of bios issues. Though according to MS, Vista should run fine on them once it comes out. | |||
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Kasumi-Astra Flurry Since: 11-18-05 From: Sheffield England Last post: 6327 days Last view: 6327 days |
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| As soon as it arrives, I'll let you know how quick it goes. I have to say that because it's my first, I won't have any guage of how fast it's actually going with PowerPC apps. If there's a free program that I can download that you'd like me to try, I'll give it a whirl when I can Having said that, I really need to get a copy of Photoshop. I won't be able to afford buying it for a very long time.
I'm sure it will work in Apple's favour. There still isn't any PC quite like the Mac on the market, and I'm sure the general public will continue to acknowledge that. The closest competitor to the iMac would probably be a Vaio, but the desktops are still absolutely hiddeous. As far as I see it, as long as Dell are still selling their brand of PCs then Apple will still sell Macs. |
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Tarale 2710 Affected by 'Princess Bitch-Face Syndrome' ++++!! Persona non grata Since: 11-17-05 From: Adelaide, Australia Last post: 6327 days Last view: 6327 days |
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Originally posted by ||bass Indeed. The issue is that there is no BIOS. The only current version of Windows that supports EFI is the 64 bit one. Which isn't compatible with the Intel Core Duo in the Mac. So yes, at the moment you can't natively dual boot. Vista will support EFI. |
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||bass Administrator Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6329 days Last view: 6327 days |
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Originally posted by TaraleI wonder if you could dual boot the system with normal XP if you installed GRUB into the MBR.Originally posted by ||bass |
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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - Hardware / Software - Apple announces MacBook Pro |
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