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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - General Gaming - Molecules System: An Idea |
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Kutske                 Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6659 days Last view: 6659 days |
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| With the new generation of consoles on the horizon, and one already realized, graphics have pretty much reached their peak; there will never again be such an amazing and noticable jump as from SNES to N64, future generations will mostly just clean up jaggies, use less fog, more polygons and so forth. But I do believe there is one major hurdle that has yet to be cleared.
Textures. Graphics right now basically just consist of polygonal models with textures applied to them; this technique is used on everything from water to the sky to characters and the clothes they wear. The problem with this is that polygons are stiff, and clothes and water and such are not, creating a noticably "fake" feeling. While pondering to myself, I came up with a hypothetical solution to these problems. I call it the Molecules System. Rather than using polygons to create shapes which are then textured, there'd actually be billions of tiny spherical models that are interconnected to create free-flowing more complex shapes. Imagine if a character's clothes were created in such a way; just apply gravity and her shirt falls on her realistically, and flows in the wind and as she moves. Imagine if water were made using this system; the molecules are mostly transparent with a tinge of blue and they stick to each other whenever nearby unless pulled apart. Realistic water would actually be doable. Granted, since I have no idea what sort of technical specs would be required to run this kind of system, Molecules may still be a ways off, but I like the concept and think it could very well be used in the near future. Tell me what you think. |
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Schweiz oder etwas [12:55] (Dr_Death16); I swear, the word drama needs to be stricken from the dictionary, for I've heard it so many times, it will permanently be imprinted on my brain     Since: 11-17-05 From: Kingston, Rhode Island Last post: 6312 days Last view: 6312 days |
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| We're talking rendering billions of individual spherical models here... It'll take one shithell of a graphics card even if they're only byte-sized spheres.
As for unrealism in things like clothing and characters in textures, and the use of physics to invite realism, I invite you to look at Half Life 2. Two years in the making, and they've so far created what I like to believe is the most realistic human character model there is out there. In the opening sequence in particular, when G-Man is talking about waking up and being in the right place at the wrong time, the detail on his face made it very clear that they meant business in the graphical department. The individual pores on his ugly doesn't-seem-quite-human face were rendered. You could see everything about him, and it's the same way with nearly every character in the game. The physics engine is also very impressive for the time. In a world where nearly every object and piece of debris is interactable, it's interesting to see that they've actively applied weights to all of these objects and tried to factor them into gravity, motion, left, and drop. There are times when you're wondering why it seems so unrealistic (like when you're picking up metal crates, dropping them, and watching them slide), but for the most part it's a very well done system, especially in terms of the ragdoll body physics. So Kutske, if you haven't played HL2, pick it up and realize that through alternate means, we're actually closer to your dream than you'd think. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6312 days Last view: 6312 days |
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| They're already working on a system to do such a thing, or something remarkably similar. The PHYSx card or whatever the crap it is.
It's expensive to make drastic changes to the way video games are made. The industry likes to remain somewhat static. |
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Kutske Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6659 days Last view: 6659 days |
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| I've actually played HL2, and that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about realistic (read: modern/futuristic) graphics, I'm talking about realistic physics based upon the gradual phasing out of polygons, in favor of Molecules. Clothes that move and flow, water that actually acts like water, structures that can be permanently altered from the smallest scratch to utter destruction; it'd be just as likely and easily employed in a fantasy setting as modern.
What I'd like to see is for perhaps the first Zelda game of the Revolution to have Link and Link only wearing clothes that used Molecules instead of polygons. We move from a single main character to perhaps all the water (assuming there's not a lot of it) in a game being made in the same way. We move on to a game whose setting doesn't often change using buildings and other structures made of Molecules. As the industry grows more comfortable with the technology and the systems become more and more powerful, it's use spreads to where entire landscapes are made using Molecules, creating an effect similar to that of Scorched Earth, albeit on a more graphically sophisticated game, until eventually, polygons are phased out entirely. Also, I far overestimated when I said billions. Shortly after posting this topic, I did a rough estimate of the number of "molecules" it'd take to make JC Denton of Deus Ex's blue trench coat. The calculation was based on the texture I extracted from the game, using pixel count, and from the in-game model, using polygon count, and rounded out at a cool 27,648. I think that's realistic for even Xbox 360. And I say "even" because it's the first to be released. I expect the later-released PS3 to be more powerful, as far as processing power goes. I like to take existing ideas and reinvent them in my head, and have grown a fierce distaste for most things accepted as the norm because of this. Now's not the place, but sometime, ask me about the Outernet or the Manus or Tags. |
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Ailure Mr. Shine I just want peace...  Since: 11-17-05 From: Sweden Last post: 6312 days Last view: 6312 days |
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| Voxels anyone? They're been used in a few older games, but I wouldn't mind seing them around again. They would look amazing with high resolution, and will have better physics than polygons ever will.
With small enough voxels, and you have what you're looking for.  But remember that computer based on silicon have it's limits. At some point we have to find a new way to make computers if we want them to be steadily faster. 
Hell, effects like in scorched earth is possible with voxels. Thought I wanted to mention that.
It's just a damn shame that voxels just hadn't got popular... (Tiberian sun uses voxels, so does RA2 and the engine build supports it, althought sadly the support was added after DN3D was finished  )(edited by Ailure on 12-28-05 10:36 PM) |
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Kutske Since: 11-19-05 Last post: 6659 days Last view: 6659 days |
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| Refresh my memory; can voxels be of any shape, or are they exclusively cubic? | |||
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Cruel Justice I have better things to do. Since: 11-18-05 From: At my house! Last post: 6313 days Last view: 6312 days |
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| I thought voxels could be spherical, so I think they can.
The molecules system... they would have to find a way of marketing affordable 100tb memory cards or something first. Molecules cannot be seen and there are several billion in a crumb of bread. Although it's interesting, it's far-fetched. |
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Kyoufu Kawa Intends to keep Rom Hacking in one piece until the end  Since: 11-18-05 From: Catgirl Central Station Last post: 6312 days Last view: 6312 days |
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Originally posted by AilureFrom the maker of that same engine... VOXLAP! |
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HyperHacker Star Mario Finally being paid to code in VB! If only I still enjoyed that. <_< Wii #7182 6487 4198 1828 Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada, w00t! My computer's specs, if anyone gives a damn. STOP TRUNCATING THIS >8^( Last post: 6313 days Last view: 6313 days |
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Originally posted by [GGS I think pixel-sized would probably do fine for this purpose. It would be difficult, though, especially since all modern systems are designed to work with polygons. It might be more feasible if the device in question was designed specifically to do molecules, but then it probably couldn't do polygons. |
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Yoronosuku Toss Tortoise Since: 11-17-05 From: Massachusetts is my new home.. Last post: 6312 days Last view: 6312 days |
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| Why not design it to do both...surely polygons are as perfected as they can be at this point (do you see graphics getting much better anyway?), and if a molecule system w as designed they can combine it with familiar perfected polygon technology. The molocule idea in general is so out there that this would be just as possible you know. I really do like the concept tho..and I sort of hope a practical way of getting a similar effect comes out very, very soon. | |||
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Schweiz oder etwas [12:55] (Dr_Death16); I swear, the word drama needs to be stricken from the dictionary, for I've heard it so many times, it will permanently be imprinted on my brain Since: 11-17-05 From: Kingston, Rhode Island Last post: 6312 days Last view: 6312 days |
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| But you'd have to reconfigure the physics engine to account for every individual molecule. That's a lot of physics, even if you make a single blanket statement that applies to all molecules on the object. Rendering every individual equation (through the use of a single function that is just mapped to every molecule or otherwise) still requires that you have a processor powerful enough to take all of those calculations at once. Xbox 3shitty may have six processors, but that doesn't mean anything in the face of rendering entire worlds in the name of realism. In fact, it doesn't mean anything at all. It means Microsoft threw six PCs into one box and called it a console. AGAIN. This in no way changes the way games are coded, it in no way changes how HDR or SLI or any of those other gaming buzzwords work, it just means Microsoft is once again ramming people in the arse and taking advantage of the trendwhore market. I swear the next time I hear someone say that the AI in Call of Duty 2 Xbox is more intricate than the PC version because it's handled by one of the 3crappy's six processors by itself, I'm going to stab them with an optical mouse (read; IT'S NOT.).
Back on topic: Now that I think back to your claim, molecules sounds like a very, very interesting idea. It'd be like having a sheet made of bubbles wrapping around characters. We ARE quickly approaching the point where multiple calculations can be rendered fast enough to fit them in a gaming perspective, so why the hell not? Let's give it a shot! >.> In the very least it'd look cool while we experience godly framerate loss. |
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Zem Permabanned. Flaming, trolling, reregistering. Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6635 days Last view: 6635 days |
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| Dur? There's a lot more levels we can go down before we get anywhere close to molecules. First off, no, polygons are not almost perfected. The most recent developments have been getting objects to look like they have more polygons than they do, because we still aren't at the point where we can fill the screen with polygons and have it run like water. When a dynamically rendered polygonal environment looks like one of Blizzard's videos (or Pixar's, or whatever) then we'll have perfected polygons. And you know what? That will take a lot less computational power than this molecules thing. | |||
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HyperHacker Star Mario Finally being paid to code in VB! If only I still enjoyed that. <_< Wii #7182 6487 4198 1828 Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada, w00t! My computer's specs, if anyone gives a damn. STOP TRUNCATING THIS >8^( Last post: 6313 days Last view: 6313 days |
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Originally posted by Yoronosuku It's possible, sure, but it'd probably be expensive. Even if just for the fact that they can charge more for something that does both. 
Grey's point about physics is probably the biggest problem. It might be possible, though, to optimize things by not performing the actual physics calculations on every single molecule. For example if an entire solid object is moving through air (say a bullet), there's no need to calculate all the physics of every single molecule; once you've calculated the new coordinates for one molecule given its speed/angle/etc, you can just update the rest to the same spot relative to their position within the object. Although there's still another problem - each molecule will need a certain amount of memory. At very least, their X/Y/Z coords relative to the object they belong to, some sort of ID to tell which object that is, and a colour. Assuming the coords are 4-byte floats and the object ID a 2-byte short, and no alpha channel, that's 17 bytes each (4 for each coord = 12 total, 2 for object ID, 3 for each colour). Not a whole lot, but when you're talking hundreds of millions of these things, along with everything else that takes up memory... yeah. I think if such a system ever is implemented, it'll still use polygons where possible. Things like a static background image or the ground in a game that you can't damage it can still just be textured polygons. Or even dynamically convert them, like make walls out of polygons, but when they're damaged, replace the polygons that were hit with molecules. Also I don't think games will ever look as good as computer-animated movies until both look precisely like reality. Consider that a game has to run at a decent framerate on one computer, while a movie's rendering is usually split across dozens or even hundreds of computers and can run at 1 frame per hour for all anyone cares (the rendering only has to happen once, after all). (edited by HyperHacker on 12-30-05 09:52 PM) |
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Kyoufu Kawa Intends to keep Rom Hacking in one piece until the end Since: 11-18-05 From: Catgirl Central Station Last post: 6312 days Last view: 6312 days |
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| Screenshots anyone? I got 'em. | |||
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Ailure Mr. Shine I just want peace... Since: 11-17-05 From: Sweden Last post: 6312 days Last view: 6312 days |
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| Just imagine that in high-res (or rather, with smaller voxels) and all, since sadly... modern Graphics cards are built around the concept of Polygons. Not voxels. And even then, the few voxels games that looks neat runs smoothly...
And yes, technically you could do a similar system to voxels, but with spheares instead... it would look strange though unless you really did go high-res. And if the spheares are polygon (you could cheat with small 2D ones) that's a huge memory waste...
Or maybe it won't use that much memory, I don't know. I hadn't seen any sphearicaly voxels, just square ones. (edited by Ailura on 12-31-05 09:07 AM) (edited by Ailura on 12-31-05 09:08 AM) |
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Kyoufu Kawa Intends to keep Rom Hacking in one piece until the end Since: 11-18-05 From: Catgirl Central Station Last post: 6312 days Last view: 6312 days |
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| I've seen spherical voxels. In one of Mr. Silverman's editors. | |||
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Yoronosuku Toss Tortoise Since: 11-17-05 From: Massachusetts is my new home.. Last post: 6312 days Last view: 6312 days |
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| I don't get it..disregarding the low quality, I did not see very much realism in that screenshot..is there something I'm missing here? ._.;; | |||
Squash Monster Bouncy Since: 11-18-05 From: Right next to myself. Last post: 6320 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| Modelling the interactions of every last molecule is a great idea.
...if you're a theoretical physicist. Back in the real world, it turns out that molecular physics doesn't work so well if you try to use it to model common objects. You'll get the most realistic physics by using classical mechanics*. A lot of games already have very good physics engines for this. Whether they bother to use them very well could be debated. Though I think everyone sane is going to be on the side of "no, they're not using these engines very well". So, modeling things on the molecular level? No**. Now, on our other topic, of voxels? Hell yes. I mean, even primative voxels are shiny. There's a lot of interesting stuff we can do with voxels. Like deformable stuffs. And voxels bring back the sprite. You all know that sprites are awesome, right? On the topic of deformable stuff: You know, you don't need to limit this to terrain. Imagine a FPS made entirely in voxels. Yes, you can shell a path strait through a mountainside if you're bored enough. But more interestingly, voxel tanks. Imagine, you shoot an enemy tank, and blow a chunk out of it. Now you can see bits of the inside of the tank. Specific voxels can be set to disable or completely destroy the tank. So you can blow off the turret. Or shoot the gas tank. Or sandblast the paint off. Whatever trips your trigger. *You'll get more realistic results with other types of physics if you're game's really off the wall. Some examples: --Playing billiards with stars: relativistic physics --Super-microscopic Doom where you're the size of a virus: molecular physics --The Adventures of Clawsalot The Lobster: fluid dynamics **Unless your game is The Adventures of Atom Adam. In which case you can feel free to use molecular physics if that trips your triger. |
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Zem Permabanned. Flaming, trolling, reregistering. Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6635 days Last view: 6635 days |
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| I <3 Squash Monster | |||
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Cymoro Administrator    Since: 11-17-05 From: Cymoro Gaming Last post: 6312 days Last view: 6312 days |
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| I've actually seen those Cave Voxel demos before (FIND THE RED BLASTER), and I must say, they're the best examples of voxels. However, I have to try out the other example today. It looks very interesting. |
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