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| 0 users currently in SMW Hacking. |
| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - SMW Hacking - ASM hack idea. (Sprite graphics related) |
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Smallhacker Super Koopa I AM A Group Of Officially Frustrated Younglings, G.O.O.F.Y. MEMBER |
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| I'm very interested in making a new level editor for SMW. There's only a few problems, though.
1) It would be an enormous project, and it would require tons and tons of work and time. 2) It would lack LM's ASM hacks (at least to begin with) and thereby keep the regular SMW limitations. 3) Incompatible with hacks made with LM. 4) I'm not sure how popular it would be. I wouldn't like to make such a big project if nobody would use it. 5) Inexperience with C++. I know most of the language's features, but I'm inexperienced and my knowledge about libraries is very limited. Like I said, I'm interested in doing this, but I doubt that I would be able to do it alone. ...is anybody else interested in doing this? |
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Sukasa Birdo Not quite as active as before. Xkeeper supporter Xk > ||bass I IP Banned myself! Twice!                    Since: 11-17-05 From: Somewhere over there Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6293 days |
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| I am, but I don't know anything at all about C or C++, just VB6.
But I suppose if you asked, FuSoYa might be willing to help out with the project by giving us information on the addendums to the SMW level format he made. |
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Disruptive Idiot Red Paragoomba  Since: 11-17-05 From: Syosset Last post: 6420 days Last view: 6293 days |
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| I am thoroughly proficient with C++(as far as features, syntax go). I am a severe amature though, I haven't ever completed a useful or decent project. I'd put myself at total n00b level.
Regardless, if I'd still be useful to an open source SMW editor project, I'd chip in. |
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HyperHacker Star Mario Finally being paid to code in VB! If only I still enjoyed that. <_< Wii #7182 6487 4198 1828 Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada, w00t! My computer's specs, if anyone gives a damn. STOP TRUNCATING THIS >8^( Last post: 6293 days Last view: 6293 days |
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Originally posted by Smallhacker True, but if you, say, already have experience writing an editor that you could base it off, that's a lot less work you have to do.
Why? Finding the changes made should be a snap (compare files), and most of them can just be made into patches that the editor would apply. Those that require support by the editor, like ExGFX, shouldn't end up being a huge amount of additional work.
Not if you make the same or compatible changes, or provide a converter.
LM is pretty popular. Why wouldn't an open-source editor sporting the same features and more be equally or more popular.
You should learn.  There are plenty of people who know C++, though.
Absolutely. When I finished Hack-O-Matic (a Pokémon G/S editor) I had planned to try making a few other editors based off it. Maybe SMW can be one. 
I doubt we can count on Fu providing any help. He no longer cares about SMW and seems very reluctant to release any information (ironic in a way). If he does, bonus. |
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Sukasa Birdo Not quite as active as before. Xkeeper supporter Xk > ||bass I IP Banned myself! Twice! Since: 11-17-05 From: Somewhere over there Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6293 days |
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| Well, perhaps I can help with the 65816 ASM side of an open-source editor.
And... I know other attempts at this have failed, but all we need to do is *not* giv eup this time. Just keep going, and there shouldn't be a problem. |
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Glyphodon Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6334 days Last view: 6314 days |
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Originally posted by Disruptive Idiot That's not true at all. Does LM even mess with the way SMW handles sprites? Even if it does, I'm sure there's working around that. Thinking a new LM is needed to support a nonexistant, theoretical sprite engine is beyond unreasonable. Originally posted by HyperHacker If you have an editor as good as Lunar Magic or someone who can build editors as well as FuSoYa hidden away somewhere, by all means, share with the class. Sure, there are those who could whip something up, but just because an editor is open-source does not make it worthy of replacing Lunar Magic. Originally posted by HyperHacker Because it doesn't exist. Equalling Lunar Magic's features is a gargantuan, thankless task because whatever falls into that category has been done before and done well. That's why I don't believe it's going to be done any time in the near future. Originally posted by Smallhacker Smally, bless your little status bar editor making heart, but you're no FuSoYa. Don't pull a SMW Development Environment and code a utility just to add a lackluster palette feature or some such and then just give up. Originally posted by Sukasa + Admirable solution, but it's an inevitable conclusion. (edited by Glyph Phoenix on 08-18-06 11:33 PM) (edited by Glyph Phoenix on 08-18-06 11:34 PM) |
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Stifu Since: 11-18-05 From: Your mom's bed Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6293 days |
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| Whether this new SMW editor project fails or not, that pessimism is uncalled for, Glyph. If everyone had that kind of mindset, Genecyst might still be the best Mega Drive emulator, for example... Probably not the most fitting one. :p
Just let them try their best. FuSoYa is human, his work can be surpassed. |
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Sukasa Birdo Not quite as active as before. Xkeeper supporter Xk > ||bass I IP Banned myself! Twice! Since: 11-17-05 From: Somewhere over there Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6293 days |
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Well, you need a realist stifu... doesn't mean we can't still prove him wrong on this one though  |
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HyperHacker Star Mario Finally being paid to code in VB! If only I still enjoyed that. <_< Wii #7182 6487 4198 1828 Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada, w00t! My computer's specs, if anyone gives a damn. STOP TRUNCATING THIS >8^( Last post: 6293 days Last view: 6293 days |
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Originally posted by Glyph Phoenix You seem to have the same opinion as many n00bs here. You think LM is the best thing ever made. It's very good, sure, but it's not the holy grail of software you make it out to be. There are plenty of programs (not necessarily level editors) available now that are just as good. Yes, it took Fu a long time, but this is mainly because: 1) He had little prior experience in the field and wrote messy code (evidenced by a screenshot on his website showing that all LM's code is in one huge file). 2) He had to discover everything about the game himself. We already have plenty of information to go by, plus far better tools. 3) Laziness and/or business. One version coming out a year after the previous one doesn't mean that version took a year's worth of work.
Originally posted by HyperHacker Obviously I meant if one was made, hence, "why wouldn't it be" as opposed to "why isn't it". |
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Sukasa Birdo Not quite as active as before. Xkeeper supporter Xk > ||bass I IP Banned myself! Twice! Since: 11-17-05 From: Somewhere over there Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6293 days |
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| You'd have to show me that link HH, I've never see that screenshot. And messy code is in the eye of the beholder IMO. However, we still don't know as much about SMW as FuSoYa does...
So Why on earth are there so few updates to the SMW entry on datacrystal? It's kinda silly, I've probably made over half of all updates to that page... |
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Boom.dk Since: 11-18-05 From: Denmark Last post: 6311 days Last view: 6292 days |
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| I would also help making such a program. If I can, that is. I don't know any programming language but PHP, and my knowledge about SMW is limited. I'm willing to learn, though. And AFAIK C++ and PHP are very alike. | |||
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Sukasa Birdo Not quite as active as before. Xkeeper supporter Xk > ||bass I IP Banned myself! Twice! Since: 11-17-05 From: Somewhere over there Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6293 days |
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| Well, if this gets goign I already can think of one thing it can improve over LM one: RATS tags. Perhaps you could add compatibility for them, but for Blocktool Omega, I have a problem where there is no safe way to protect 4 1/2 banks of data tables... thus, LM itself would stand a good chance of corrupting the tables and rashing SMW... I've ocme up with a workaround - filling the table entries with $8080 as the "not used" word, which should hopefully stop LM from overwriting the BTO table... at the expense of two unused activation bitflags. not bad, but then again not good either. | |||
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HyperHacker Star Mario Finally being paid to code in VB! If only I still enjoyed that. <_< Wii #7182 6487 4198 1828 Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada, w00t! My computer's specs, if anyone gives a damn. STOP TRUNCATING THIS >8^( Last post: 6293 days Last view: 6293 days |
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Originally posted by Sukasa + Because everyone submits the info to SMW Central instead. :p Also the screenshot is here. Notice he only seems to have one file open, and it's scrolled ~1/4 down at line 6128. RATS is a good example of why open-source is a good thing. Personally I never liked the idea of using data in the ROM itself to mark sections as used. It makes it difficult to mark sections within the existing ROM. A separate file defining these regions makes a bit more sense. |
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Glyphodon Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6334 days Last view: 6314 days |
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Originally posted by Stifu It's not that it's not possible to make a new Lunar Magic, I just don't think it's worth attempting. Fu was very good at what he did, and redoing all his work for no real reason just doesn't seem like a good idea. Why? Sprite Tool, Blocktool, and the HDMA patch all seem to work with Lunar Magic... what missing feature is so important that all that work needs to be redone? Originally posted by HyperHacker Lunar Magic is an exceptional utility, no more and no less. If you know of software that does something as complex as LM while having as few bugs and is as user-friendly and fun to use, by all means, tell me so I can download it. Originally posted by HyperHacker I was implying that such a utility would be more popular than Lunar Magic, it just just not likely to exist. A new Lunar Magic is a theoretical, n00b's wishlist type of item because it would take a lot of work for no solid reason. Originally posted by Boom.dk Heh heh heh... I certainly don't think so. C++ is a totally different ballpark: Memory management, compilation, and low level work make things very different than PHP which is primarily used for HTML preprocessing. Originally posted by HyperHacker Not really, no. A few bytes in-rom to map a reserved space is less annoying than another file we'll have to drag around along with hacks. (edited by Glyph Phoenix on 08-19-06 03:04 PM) |
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Disruptive Idiot Red Paragoomba Since: 11-17-05 From: Syosset Last post: 6420 days Last view: 6293 days |
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I meant for this example, Hyper Hacker said that it would be best to store the sprite graphics uncompressed in the rom (or low-level compression) so that they could be dynamically loaded. Lunar Magic wouldn't be able to work with these decompressed graphics, so you'd have to manually insert them, but LM wouldn't know they existed. An open source editor would also be upgradeable so that the community can keep adding features, even if the original programmers were long gone. You gotta think of it in the long run, right now we have Lunar Magic and dozens of mini-utilities. If there was an open source editor all these things could be integrated into one development kit, but instead we have a hodge-podge of stuff. Your realism is appreciated, but realism never changed the world. Not really, no. A few bytes in-rom to map a reserved space is less annoying than another file we'll have to drag around along with hacks. The separate file could be placed in an archive with the rom, this would be your project file. When you release the rom, you release the .smc within the archive. One development archive, one release file. (edited by Disruptive Idiot on 08-19-06 03:20 PM) |
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Sukasa Birdo Not quite as active as before. Xkeeper supporter Xk > ||bass I IP Banned myself! Twice! Since: 11-17-05 From: Somewhere over there Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6293 days |
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| Actually, I prefer the in-ROM RATS tag myself... That's another advantqage of an open-source editor: support for both methods could be achieved.
And a RATS2 system that would allow larger amounts of data to be reserved would be win in my book. |
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Stifu Since: 11-18-05 From: Your mom's bed Last post: 6295 days Last view: 6293 days |
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Originally posted by Glyph Phoenix Overall, I think that trying to make a new editor that'd be more flexible can only benefit the SMW hacking scene... on the other hand, I think there are many other games that would deserve the attention more that SMW... Games that currently have no editor at all. |
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Raccoon Sam Boomerang Brother Custom Title  Since: 11-20-05 From: Correct Last post: 6293 days Last view: 6293 days |
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| Open Source-ness-ness would also provide Operating System independence eventually.
Oh, I can only imagine SMW level editor for OSX _¬ (edited by Raccoon Sam on 08-19-06 04:54 PM) |
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HyperHacker Star Mario Finally being paid to code in VB! If only I still enjoyed that. <_< Wii #7182 6487 4198 1828 Since: 11-18-05 From: Canada, w00t! My computer's specs, if anyone gives a damn. STOP TRUNCATING THIS >8^( Last post: 6293 days Last view: 6293 days |
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Originally posted by Glyph PhoenixOriginally posted by HyperHacker Well there you go. If LM were open-source I could implement the separate-file method while you keep using a version that uses RATS. Or add both. Raccoon Sam also brings up one of the best points regarding open-source - closed-source programs can't be ported to other operating systems (except by the author, obviously). (edited by HyperHacker on 08-19-06 04:57 PM) |
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Glyphodon Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6334 days Last view: 6314 days |
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| Support for both memory mapping methods would just make things more complicated. There's already a good standard like there's already a good SMW editor. Incompatibilities and lots of rewritten features are no good.
And yes, while an editor for other OS's would be nice, that just means more incompatiblities and incompatible features. It's not that I believe a new Lunar Magic wouldn't be helpful in some ways, it's that I firmly believe nobody capable of doing so truly wants to spend the time making it and nobody who truly wants to spend their time making a new Lunar Magic is capable of doing so. Go ahead, try and prove me wrong. Just remember that I told you so when all you've gotten done is a buggy, pre-alpha level editor that does a couple mildly useful tricks and you decide you don't want to work on it anymore. Realism does change the world. It allows us an accurate view of it, and that's a valuable thing indeed. |
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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - SMW Hacking - ASM hack idea. (Sprite graphics related) |
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