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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - would you fight for your beliefs if it meant death? |
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spiroth10 Paratroopa                 Since: 01-28-06 From: USA Last post: 6289 days Last view: 6289 days |
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| If tommorrow, the government of your country or aliens or whatever else took away everything you believe in, would you fight, even if you knew it meant death? Would you make that final symbolic stand, even if it was you and you alone against an army of thousands?
My mind always shifts to this concept. I constantly see there are many people (in the world entirely) who speak of philosophies and beliefs, but would do nothing to protect them -- that would as soon forget them as they spoke their words. If everything I believed in was taken away, I'd fight to the death against any opponent, even if everybody else just watched me die. I'd personally know that I tried, and hope that I (in the words of FF) "spread the seeds of the future". it is for this that I show respect for Isreal, and for so-called terrorist orgranizations. I dont agree with them, but in a world where there are no more revolutionaries, they demand respect. I could most closely be compared to a Chaotically just/good Neverwinter Nights character. I would (and actually have in the past) stand up for my beliefs no matter the consequence; and I HAVE paid dire prices for those incidents. I've lost my dignity, my honor, been made a fool of, and have come close to being (physically) injured. I speak what I think, with no censorship. Sometimes there are consequences. But even if I have to die to defend them, I will. And I'll have one final breath -- one with personal honor and dignity. At least I'll know that I never gave up, and that I died because I did not change for society, and they weren't going to change for me. I think I constantly misrepresent myself, and have constantly made myself look like an evil psychopath on this board, hopefully this clears that up, adn shows what I think in a clearer light. would you fight/die for you freedoms? Even if it was you alone, while the whole world watched (and disagreed)? I would. |
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sandrocklq Red Cheep-cheep    Since: 07-31-06 Last post: 6426 days Last view: 6426 days |
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| I doubt I would die for my beliefs. The only thing I would be willing to die for is to save a loved one or a large amount of people I don't know. I would probably think differently though if I grew up in such a volitale region as the MIddle East. | |||
witeasprinwow  Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6398 days Last view: 6398 days |
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Originally posted by spiroth10 Um... Well... Anyways... Depends on the belief. I wouldn't die for some dude who got jipped out of a dollar. Why is my life less important than a dollar? My sacrifice is extremely disproportionate to his loss. Some things aren't worth the cost for them. Would I risk death for someone I care about? It's easy to say yes, it's much harder to actually do it. Spiroth points out something I think is true; many people are hypocrites, or at least would go against their own beliefs when the moment comes due to fear. (In fact, many people I've talked to have beliefs that contradict themselves, and as such it'd be impossible for them NOT to be hypocrites at some point until they re-examine their beliefs. They aren't bad people necessarily, they just aren't very self-aware.) Of course, EVERYONE is going to reply in this thread saying they'd definately die for something. Wether you should die for something is a belief in and of itself, and you most definately can be hypocritical about it. It's easy for me / Spiroth / sandrock to write that we'd die for something, but it's a lot harder to actually do it. So... Would I die for any one person? Maybe if I really had someone I loved, but I have nobody like that in my life. Probably not. Would I die for a huge sum of people I don't know? Good question. (edited by witeasprinwow on 08-01-06 05:52 PM) (edited by witeasprinwow on 08-01-06 05:53 PM) |
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Jomb Deddorokku  Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6292 days Last view: 6292 days |
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| What about for your freedom? Would you die for that? It does'nt have to be over people's lives. What if a dictator took over your country and took away all your rights and freedoms, but posed no direct threat of killing you or anyone, so long as they obeyed and did'nt do anything the government disagreed with? | |||
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6398 days Last view: 6398 days |
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Originally posted by Jomb Consider for a moment that killing someone is the ultimate restriction of freedom. In other words, if you are for freedom, is it better to be alive and enjoy what freedoms you have? Or do you go all-or-nothing? Where do you draw the line? (edited by witeasprinwow on 08-01-06 08:43 PM) |
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Jomb Deddorokku Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6292 days Last view: 6292 days |
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| Me, I'd go all or nothing, complete freedom or death (well, or disobediance, it does'nt have to be death every time). But i have no desire to kill people, so the idea that i'm limiting my freedom by not being allowed to murder people is purely conjecture to me.
I draw the line at your actions harming other people in a clear and direct way. Outside of that it should be complete freedom with no other restrictions. I'd fight for that. |
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ziffhasnoaim/password Snifit Since: 06-07-06 Last post: 6481 days Last view: 6481 days |
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| It really just depends on all the circumstances. | |||
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6398 days Last view: 6398 days |
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Originally posted by Jomb Would you revolt and risk death over taxes or something? Doubly so when there are other people much, much worse off than you are? If you constantly disobey, you will be fined and sentanced and whatnot and eventually end up in jail. Is simply disobeying really an option, then? You're going to sacrifice all your freedoms just to disobey a law a few times? I have qualms about the "clear and direct" part, too. There are many round-about ways to hurt people. EDIT: Ziff said it pretty well. I don't think there is a clear rule. (edited by witeasprinwow on 08-01-06 08:53 PM) |
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Jomb Deddorokku Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6292 days Last view: 6292 days |
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| How high are the taxes in this theoretical? Isn't that exactly what our founding fathers did?
If a law is unjust, the best way to revolt against it is civil disobediance. If enough people are with you you can make a real change. They can only lock up so many people before it becomes too big a burden on them. If we start adding in all the "round about" ways of harming people it gets ridiculous. For example, if you called me a name, I could claim that you hurt me psychologically. But you should be free to say whatever you want to say, and my feelings being hurt isn't enough to limit your freedoms. If we limit our freedoms over frivolous things soon we cant do anything because somewhere someone is going to claim we are offending them and causing them psychological stress. Maybe i'd make an allowance for if you are stalking someone or following them around for the sole purpose of harassing them, but it should be strictly limited. We should always err on the side of freedom. |
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witeasprinwow Since: 12-29-05 Last post: 6398 days Last view: 6398 days |
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Originally posted by Jomb I actually had that founding fathers example in the post originally, but I took it out because I was afraid it would spawn a debate over the actual reasons for the Revolutionary War and how much of it was taxes. Let's not get involved in that; I like this thread as is, and I don't want it to get off-topic. Let's suppose that the taxes are low enough so you still have everything you need to live (well-made housing, enough space to store your stuff and live, clean water, a proper amount of food, transportation of some kind to work and back), working say, 8 hours a day for 5 or 6 days a week... But the taxes are too high for you to afford much beyond that, and it's holding you back from some dream of yours that costs money. (Recording and releasing an album, Buying a boat and sailing around the world, building your own super-fast car... any goal that requires a hefty monetary investment to get started.) EDIT: Assume for the sake of this argument that you believe that the people are intrinsically owed more than this by their government; that the government should help people reach their goals, or at least that the government owes it to the people not to tax them so much that they cannot reach their goals. Is that really worth risking your life for? Especially, say, if in other countries the people are much worse off than this? Cases like this is why there cannot be one sweeping rule. It has to come down to a case-by-case basis. -- Civil Disobedience works well with very very bad laws, like the racist laws of the 1950's, and that's why it worked so well. Consensus was that it was such a bad law that it was worth risking all you have in order to get it overturned. For taxes or something minor, it does not work nearly as well. Only a certain small percentage of people will be willing to go to jail as a protest of taxes. When that happens, the government will not be so encumbered that it has to repeal the law, and the people who protested will face the full consequences of the law. Furthermore, usually breaking the law makes you look uncooperative and reckless. Unless the cause is great like state before, it probably won't convince people to join the cause. -- "Always err on the side of freedom"? I call bull. Error is error, and it is bad no matter what. You should shoot for complete justice, and that way if you err you will fall as close to the mark as possible. You'd have to set up a court to deal with the round-about means on a case-by-case basis. There are too many ways to harm people indirectly in order to let that kind of behavior slide. Mainly, I'm thinking of the more roundabout means of racism. I'll post more tommorow; I'm feeling tired. (edited by witeasprinwow on 08-02-06 05:02 PM) (edited by witeasprinwow on 08-02-06 05:06 PM) |
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Pas'ra'chilli Red Paragoomba  Since: 01-23-06 From: Albuquerque Last post: 6362 days Last view: 6321 days |
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| I think if you aren't willing to die for your causes then they probably aren't very good ones to begin with. | |||
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sandrocklq Red Cheep-cheep Since: 07-31-06 Last post: 6426 days Last view: 6426 days |
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| Dying for taxes and dying for freedom are definitely two different ball games.
In my mind it would be a lot easier for me to die for freedom than for taxes. However, dying is not something that I'm very fond of given its permanent status. I know that if I were to die for either, it would not be a spur of the moment decision as I tend to err on the side of caution. |
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6289 days Last view: 6289 days |
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| People die for freedom all the time.
Anyway, I would make sure there was a refuge for people to run to. A well armed, well defended, well equipped base of operations. I mean, it would be fucking easy if everyone else pretty much died. Kick down a door, loot supplies, put it somewhere for safe keeping... Yeah, I'd hide. Not in cowardice, but to ensure others who survive have a place to go. |
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Jomb Deddorokku Since: 12-03-05 From: purgatory Last post: 6292 days Last view: 6292 days |
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| In your taxes example it depends. If there was a group of like-minded people willing to fight by my side i would fight. Otherwise i'd just look for ways to not pay the taxes and get away with it, taking the chance that i could get caught. If i did get caught i'd at least be locked up over a cause i believe in.
I was'nt thinking of the racist laws, but they are a good example. Suppose you lived in nazi germany and were required to turn in your neighbors for being jews. Would you practice civil disobediance then, or be law-abiding and turn them in? Unfortunately there are many unjust laws. In my belief the government is in charge wiith our (the peoples) permission. If the government over-steps its bounds it is our right and our duty to take back that permission. Whether i looked unco-operative and reckless or not is of little concern to me, my prime concern would be that i stood up for what was right. If thats something minor than the consequences for standing up would also be minor (jail time is easy, prison time is not). For me, in a situation where there can be no absolute justice, giving people freedom wins out over taking freedom away. Racism is a complicated issue, no doubt about it. Laws will not get rid of racism, it takes a cultural change. |
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Wurl Since: 11-17-05 Last post: 6331 days Last view: 6331 days |
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Originally posted by Pas'ra'chilli I don't think that's a given truth. One may have legitimate causes, but are not willing to die for them. I also think it is important to remember that dying for a cause may not be best for your cause, especially if it's a political-prisoner-type thing. What if Nelson Mandela (just one example, there are like 458405790435 more people that did roughly the same thing) died instead of toughing it out in prison. |
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KeiiChi Kun Leever Learn some manners. Password changed to gibberish and IP banned. Since: 01-01-06 From: Sushi Bar Last post: 6302 days Last view: 6302 days |
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| I'd die for my beliefs only if a lot of people were watching and I did it in a really cool way. | |||
Coby Keese Since: 11-20-05 From: Belgium Last post: 6294 days Last view: 6291 days |
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| Yes, yes I would!
Allah Wakbar! :p Edit: Actually no, I'm not a believer and I'm not going to get myself killed just because someone else is like "omg i hav the raight god n u dont". No sir. (edited by Coby on 08-08-06 12:27 PM) |
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Squash Monster Bouncy Since: 11-18-05 From: Right next to myself. Last post: 6297 days Last view: 6290 days |
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| It depends on the circumstances, really. I'll accept much greater risks if my own efforts have something to do with the outcome. And not just to a rational extent.
Using the somebody I love example: I'd probably chicken out if I was just given a me-or-her somebody-dies choice. But on the other hand, I'd sumo a rhinocerous or wrestle a polar bear to try to save that same person. Heck, I'd probably risk my life to some degree for most people. I've always been the type of person that runs towards explosions. But I still wouldn't risk my life just for my beliefs. It doesn't make any sense with mine. I can just imagine having the conversation with some psycopathic zealot, getting my brains blown out because I didn't switch to whatever god they were tauting, meeting my maker, and having my maker laugh at me for making a stupid choice. But that's probably because I'm a Discordian. (That doesn't count as a bump in this forum, does it? I wasn't paying much attention  )(edited by Squash Monster on 08-16-06 03:53 AM) |
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spiroth10 Paratroopa Since: 01-28-06 From: USA Last post: 6289 days Last view: 6289 days |
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Originally posted by witeasprinwow yeah I guess your right for the most part -- I was mostly thiking about hypocrits while I wrote the initial post. the whole "death" part was about the larger, more important beliefs. Like, if tommorrow you were going to be sold into slavery (Im pretty sure nobody believes in that as a good thing), would you try to make a stand, knowing that you probably had no chance? stuff like that. it's not like Im saying "hey suicide bomb your leader because of taxes", but after rereading my post, I can see how it was interpreted that way. BTW, Im a history buff, and I don't think I've ever heard of an underlying cause to the revolutionary war -- but it does make sense. was it the trade restrictions? I'll have to look that up... |
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sandrocklq Red Cheep-cheep Since: 07-31-06 Last post: 6426 days Last view: 6426 days |
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| There's not really a single cause to the Revolutionary War. Just a series of acts by the British Crown imposing their will on the colonies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution The wikipedia article is a good read. |
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