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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Thought on abortion? |
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Silvershield   580                     Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6325 days Last view: 6313 days |
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Originally posted by DracoonA human child does not achieve sentience until well into its postnatal life. Do you support infanticide? (Of course, I want to say that to support abortion is to support infanticide, but in this case we'll just say that infanticide is the killing of a child that has already been born.) |
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Skydude Armos Knight  Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6587 days Last view: 6587 days |
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| Well, the thing is, the first full thought, while I'm not sure how to measure it either, or even how to really define it, is generally believed to be well after birth.
As for the brain inactivity, it's possible to have no brain activity temporarily and then recover...are those people not people during that time? |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite.  Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6315 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| Silvershield: No, because no one would have to suffer through labor/C-section/permanent damage, instead there are better options that cause no damage to anything at all. I don't condone people taking a dog into the back yard and shooting it when they could easily give it away at no cost to themselves.
Skydude: Better alternatives, and if someone is willing to pay for it, it's their money, their choice to support a leach. |
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Rydain Sir Kibble Blaze Phoenix Runs with the Dragon Within  Since: 11-18-05 From: State College, PA Last post: 6318 days Last view: 6314 days |
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Silvershield - I apologize for confusing the issues of morality vs. legality. I wasn't sure if you were morally opposed to the choice of abortion (which was clear throughout the thread) or if you actually wanted that choice to be illegal. It looked like you meant the latter, and I veered off into cranky hot button land without checking first. Again, my bad.
Originally posted by Skydude I consider it to be a necessary component of personhood. A body with human DNA and a nonfunctioning brain is human, but it is not a human being. Depending on whether or not it ever had brain function, it is a potential person or a former person. For example, in her persistent vegetative state, Terri Schiavo was human, but she was no longer a person. Originally posted by SkydudeThis is not true. Brain waves are, by definition, organized activity from the cortex. They cannot be measured at all before 20-24 weeks because the requisite neurological systems are not in place. Electrical activity has been measured at 40-56 days, but that's not at all the same as brain waves. Plants show the same sort of electrical activity when hooked up to an EEG. In the context of personhood, my definition of brain functioning is "brain waves from the cortex". This is the brain activity that produces our minds - our very selves. In response to the question about what happens if that sort of brain activity is temporarily stopped - can it ever? I don't know for certain and I'm having trouble finding a pat answer (so any evidence one way or the other would be appreciated), but from what I've read about brain death, it does not seem possible for the cerebral cortex to cease function and restart. Once it dies, it's done. It's not like a paused heart muscle that can be jolted back to life. People might lose consciousness temporarily (sleep, be anesthetized, etc.), but the cerebral cortex never stops producing brain waves during this time. |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6325 days Last view: 6313 days |
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Originally posted by RydainNah, you were right that I'd certainly be in favor of it being illegal. It would even have been reasonable to flat out assume that about me without me saying so. I was just a bit put off by the thread veering towards legality rather than morality, which I would imagine would be a more compelling drive for discussion. No problem either way though  . |
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1215 Newcomer Since: 04-05-06 From: Jersey Last post: 6632 days Last view: 6632 days |
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| Abortion is a silly topic to debate about, although it is one of the most heatly debated ones around. Other people should not care if someone is getting an abortion unless they are stupid people that use it as a contraceptive. People that use abortions as a means to repeatedly not have a child because they are too pig-headed, retarded or ignorant should be shot. It is not something that is meant to be abused and misused as if it were some kind of play thing. It is there for serious situations and people who don't understand that shouldn't even speak on the subject. That goes for those who are against it as well. Moronic people that think all abortion is terrible and unearthly are just as wrong as those who abuse it. It is not a topic that can be taken on extremes, it must be met evenly in the middle. Although people may disagree with it they need to recognize the good of it, and those who recognize the good in it also need to see the bad. | |||
Clockworkz Birdon Since: 11-18-05 Last post: 6313 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| Listen to the Newcomer. He has a good point. As fundamentalist as one person is, it needs to be met with a mature and open point of view. It's like smoking. You can't hate everybody who smokes and people who don't condemn it just because you hate smoking. It needs to met with an understanding and respect to other peoples opinions.
Listen to Mr. Redmoonassassin; he's onto something here. |
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Rom Manic Since: 12-18-05 From: Detroit, WHAT?! Last post: 6313 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| Perhaps this post is insensitive, but if I was a woman, why would I wait for the baby? What, do I want to mother a rape child? I would take the so called "Plan B" pill as soon as I could after I found out I was raped. If it was too late, then I would probably take care of it.
...Not sure how hypocritical that might sound, but it's my choice. |
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Alastor Fearless Moderator Hero  Since: 11-17-05 From: An apartment by DigiPen, Redmond, Washington Last post: 6313 days Last view: 6313 days |
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Originally posted by Rom Manic... Uh... I'm fairly certain women are conscious the vast majority of the time... And ridiculous memory gaps are pretty easy to account for otherwise... |
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Schweiz oder etwas [12:55] (Dr_Death16); I swear, the word drama needs to be stricken from the dictionary, for I've heard it so many times, it will permanently be imprinted on my brain  Since: 11-17-05 From: Kingston, Rhode Island Last post: 6313 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| As a side note, a morning after pill is standard treatment for when raped women go in for examination in order to both ID the rapist and ensure that the woman hasn't incurred any other kinds of damage (STDs, internal injuries). That's how we roll in the good old blatantly liberal state of RI.
So unfortunately for all of the anti-pill screaming that's going on out there, there's not much say in the matter since the pill is SOP for rape inquisition unless the woman insists upon it not being administered, in which case it is an automatic invocation of pro-choice ideals. This is actually how rape treatment goes in several places. As such, rape is officially out of the game on the abortion issue... At least, it is here in Rhode Island. |
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||bass Administrator  Since: 11-17-05 From: Salem, Connecticut Last post: 6314 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| I would also like to take this moment just to say that I think the Roe vs. Wade decision was the RIGHT decision but made for the WRONG reason. The whole 14th amendment privacy rights thing is a bunch of fictional judicial hocus pocus. There is no constitutional right to privacy. The REASON Roe vs. Wade is the correct decision in my book is an issue of sovirgnty of the self. | |||
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Deleted User Banned    Since: 05-08-06 Last post: None Last view: 6314 days |
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| Abortion is murder, and anyone requesting it should be punished as someone paying a killer would, and doctors who practice it should be given 10 to 20 years in prison, like any other killer. The baby's life is more important than the mother's, because the baby has an entire life to live, while the mother has less of a life to live. And another thing, if a woman gets raped, she should take the ''day after'' pill. | |||
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6325 days Last view: 6313 days |
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Originally posted by NeitzluberOk. Originally posted by Neitzluber...which is the same thing as abortion. |
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Shadic The Adventure of Link Perfect Member Since: 11-18-05 From: Olympia, Washington Last post: 6320 days Last view: 6316 days |
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Originally posted by Danielle You realize that a very large amount of children do not get adopted, right? Saying "Oh, just let it be born, and ship it off to a place with hundreds of other kids, with a marginal chance of actually finding a family before they hit 18 seems more wrong to me than stopping the process of birth before it is anything that physically resembles a human, or even has the ability to function. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6315 days Last view: 6314 days |
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Originally posted by SilvershieldOriginally posted by Neitzluber...which is the same thing as abortion. No, you consider it the same thing as abortion. Big massive difference. (edited by Arwon on 07-11-06 01:33 AM) |
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Randy53215 Melon Bug Since: 11-17-05 From: Greenfield, Wisconsin (U.S.A) Last post: 6314 days Last view: 6313 days |
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| Think of it this way...
Is it murder a month before birth? How about a week? Or a day? Maybe even an hour? Lets say a minute now? I think its totalling wrong and isnt a good thing to consider. Some say but what if she was raped? A mericle happend check it out: You do not kill the child its not there fault, you kill the rapest. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6315 days Last view: 6314 days |
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| Well I, and the majority of the planet I expect, think it becomes wrong (not "murder" mind you, killing != murder) to kill an unborn womb baby at some hazy point between conception and birth. Probably around the second trimester, it's ill-defined and impossible to pin down due to different ethnical systems and so forth. That's why we have laws that say what's okay at 2 months isn't okay at 8 or 9. Simple.
It's worth noting, I think, that the life-begins-at-conception view and the "ban abortion" views are a minority in the United States and far less popular virtually everywhere else. Especially if you're gonna ban it for rape. Frankly the fetishisation of the foetus seems a very strange obsession from where I'm sitting. See also, the ever observant Onion article, New Anti-Abortion Pill Kills Mother, Leaves Foetus Alive If you believe abortion's wrong, don't have an abortion. It's your individual choice just as it is anyone else's choice, within the framework of a legal window-of-opportunity that exists until the potential life is seen as too high a potentiality for its rights to be subjugated to that of its host. (edited by Arwon on 07-11-06 08:20 AM) |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6325 days Last view: 6313 days |
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Originally posted by ArwonNo, the poster's comment suggested that he considers it abortion. I got the sense that he thinks the "morning after pill" prevents conception rather than expels a fertilized egg. |
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Sabishii Red Paragoomba Since: 02-26-06 From: Georgia Last post: 6480 days Last view: 6480 days |
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Originally posted by Nietzluber You're implying that if I got pregnant and I don't want it, be it because of a problem of incest(ew  ), rape, risk to my health or a health risk for the baby that I shouldn't be allowed to have it?
That puts women in danger, before abortion was legalized women would go to insane,dangerous, and even fatal lengths to have a child aborted. What if I couldn't get access to a morning after pill? What if I couldn't afford to take care of a child with medical problems? Or, for that matter, to pay for the appropriate medical care I'd need as a pregnant woman? That would not only endanger my life, but the life of the child inside of me. Also, I love the fact that you feel that a fetus/child/lump of cells has more right to live than I do, despite the fact that it can't survive outside of the womb. It's the biological equivalent of a parasite, drawing on it's mother for nutrients to grow and shelter and protection. Originally posted by Randy53215 That's not humane. You leave the mother having to deal with the psychological impact of knowing that something is growing inside her that's not supposed to be there only to be followed by the pain of labor and giving birth and all the medical bills that come with a pregnancy. It's even less humane to let a child sit in an adoption center feeling unloved and unwanted and then going to it;s mother to hear something along the lines of "I gave you up because I was raped and I didn't want you." That's a real mood lifter. The world is already heavily overpopulated as it is. I never intend to have an abortion, ever. I feel that life is something special that shouldn't be wasted, but I refuse to think that I should be forced to give my life up for someone else or to put a burden on mine by supporting someone else. It's wonderful if it's what you're ready for, but no child should have to be born into a situation where they're not wanted or loved. If you like the idea of something growing inside you and depending on you and you want to deal with a child, that's wonderful. Keep it up, raise a good kid and make the world a better place, but you can't force someone to do that. It should be the woman's choice because it's her body. It should be the same in the end as homosexual marriages and contraception and tattoos and piercings, if you don't like it, don't do it. |
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Sweet Kassy Molassy Out of ice cream and PB. Would KILL for a milkshake right now.  Since: 06-17-06 From: LoozeeAnna Last post: 6314 days Last view: 6313 days |
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Originally posted by Sabishii You have my full agreement. In my opinion this is the strongest argument the pro-choicers have. |
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