| User |
Post
|
thegeek
Newcomer
  
   
   
   
 
Since: 06-27-06
Last post: 6528 days
Last view: 6528 days
|
| Posted on 06-27-06 10:50 PM |
Link
| |
I disagree with the whole "closed" open-source idea.
To adress your main points:
1. Credits, credits list would ofcourse grow, I don't really see the problem.
It would have to be made 100% clear that all work submitted would follow whatever license we choose(gpl?) and that if anyone wants to use any of the code/work it too would have to follow whatever the license states ( gnu basically says that all work can be used, but only if you make any "new" work from it gnu also )
2. Stealing would probably happen, under gnu it would be called a fork, a branch from the original project. Outright stealing is again ofcourse possible but as long as the main project remains alive it would probably always be the best.
3. Questions, in my opinion questions are great! There will always be noobs, and while you are correct in saying that it would bring more noobs, it would probably bring a lot of very good people too. We would ofcourse have main "developers" that have access to submitting code and such, that way we would filter out any unwanted crud. I don't think we should limit our resource-pool just because we're afraid of some noobs asking silly questions;P
Everyone is a noob at one time, and instead of turning away the newcomers, we could just point them in the direction of a programming tutorial.
(edited by thegeek on 06-27-06 09:52 PM)
|
Guy Perfect
Since: 11-18-05
Last post: 6296 days
Last view: 6295 days
|
| Posted on 06-27-06 11:51 PM |
Link
| |
The issue here, and I speak from direct applicable experience, is that this is VL-Tone's project, and he wishes to make an accomplishment by his own efforts. While a community editor is a great idea that I strongly encourage, I don't feel that it's approperiate to ask VL-Tone to make his own project open-source just for this cause. I suggest that the community start a brand new program from scratch.
Of course, VL-Tone knows everything his editor can do, and the community would rely on him for information about how to modify the ROM. That's not a huge deal, as a little documentation goes a long way.
Stealing is virtually a moot point. Anyone who has Google at their hand can EASILY find out that this community would be the source of its own projects and any would-be's who decide to steal the code for themselves will only be left with blatant imitation and outdated source code.
In short, I recommend that the community does choose to undertake a Super Mario 64 editor to be open-source in a contributory manner. I volunteer myself to participate in such a project. All that VL-Tone would be needed to do is provide information on what bytes in ROM do what.
The GNU GPL is Satan's way of making even himself look angelic. I recommend something more along these lines:
This software is provided 'as-is', without any express or implied
warranty. In no event will the authors be held liable for any damages
arising from the use of this software.
Permission is granted to anyone to use this software for any purpose,
including commercial applications, and to alter it and redistribute it
freely, subject to the following restrictions:
1. The origin of this software must not be misrepresented; you must not
claim that you wrote the original software. If you use this software
in a product, an acknowledgment in the product documentation would be
appreciated but is not required.
2. Altered source versions must be plainly marked as such, and must not be
misrepresented as being the original software.
3. This notice may not be removed or altered from any source distribution.
Yes, that DOES mean that people can take it and use it for themselves, but at least they don't have to spoon-feed everything they do to it back to the original source. |
VL-Tone
Paratroopa
Since: 11-18-05
Last post: 6485 days
Last view: 6485 days
|
| Posted on 06-28-06 06:44 AM |
Link
| |
Ok I had written a long post about something else, then I realized that I didn't really read BGNG post correctly, or maybe my mind blocked it off because of the implications  Maybe I'll repost the other post I had, but I have to address that first:
In short, I recommend that the community does choose to undertake a Super Mario 64 editor to be open-source in a contributory manner. I volunteer myself to participate in such a project. All that VL-Tone would be needed to do is provide information on what bytes in ROM do what.
I cannot be against that. But...
The first public version of the editor is close to be finished. I feel that at this point I'd rather spend time on improving the editor than to spend time explaining it's inner workings.
My editor is a tool that in itself will help others to build an open-source version, and will help me understand more about the formats in SM64 so I can provide better and more complete information to the community.
It's a chicken-and-egg situation, and I don't think it should be broken now by having me describe in details many things that would be much more easy to understand with the editor released.
You guys have to be a little more patient. There's already enough info in my doc and the threads to start.
But do I formally accept this deal?
I cannot say no, but I cannot say yes now, because this is still too vague.
The fear I have is about the high pressure to release all the editor's info in details in a timely manner, and having to re-explain everything to countless people that don't understand it.
I will be happy to see an open-source editor happening, but as the sole source for some of this particular info, I may get overwhelmed by the number of questions and requests. I'm not a kid having his summer days off from school. I have to make a living, working 7 hours a day, 5 days a week.
Overall, I like this idea, but I'd like to see something about protecting the actual humans involved in those open source software licenses."Authors and contributors should not be harassed into releasing info" 
And, can we add "You shall not use this software to hurt humans."?
Seriously
(edited by VL-Tone on 06-28-06 05:44 AM)
|
Cara Zeltina
 
90
Since: 05-11-06
Last post: 6369 days
Last view: 6369 days
|
| Posted on 06-28-06 07:29 AM |
Link
| |
VL, don't allow any pressure to change your decisions in this. At the moment, a lot of people want the editor released because.. Well because frankly they're just overly excited. I've lived through the community (other communities actually) long enough to know it when I see it, and a lot of these people probably won't even do anything with the editor. (Just tinker with it and put it down once they get a scope for the limitations of the game.)
There will always be the dedicated and interested people who are eagerly awaiting the release of the editor, and whom plan to actually do something.. But, they're not the majority. And in fact, I dare say that these people are probably the only patient ones! So yes, you don't have to rush anything out.. Take it slow, go at your own pace, and do make sure you're satisfied with it before you ship it out the door. (And by the by, I think it was wise of you not to give out dates anymore, those are evil, evil things aren't they?)
As for this Open Source business.. Uh, I honestly never understood where people got the urge to undertake huge involving projects like that when one is on the way (or is already done.. look at Lunar Magic for example) - there is just.. no reason to really do so. It is a lot of work to invest when someone else (in this case, VL) is dedicated in creating a polished product.. And besides, he seems very reasonable, so I'm sure if anyone requested a viable feature or submited him an idea or some obscure findings, he would take it to heart and add it or otherwise consider it at least. (Right VL-Tone?)
Really, it is just crazy talk to go into such a mess (and expect poor VL to provide all the info he has up to this point, and "explain" the meaning of it all) so soon. An Open-Source Editor project is a good idea mind you, but I disagree with using this game in such a project right now.. There are plenty of other options.. Doesn't Zelda OoT for example have similiar formats? I know Mario Kart 64 did too (Yes I know HH is already on this, but he said he wanted it Open Source anyway, so there ya go), and probably others.. Maybe just go with something less complex? Would seem a better idea to me. At the moment, it kind of seems a kick in the teeth (to be blunt) to be talking about reinventing VL's wheel before he even has the first beta out... |
Marioman64
Red Paragoomba
Since: 12-22-05
From: Maryland
Last post: 6419 days
Last view: 6419 days
|
| Posted on 06-28-06 07:45 AM |
Link
| |
Originally posted by VL-Tone
...and the threads to start....
Forget threads! What we need is a new FORUM!
HACKING:
General Hacking
Rom Hacking
Super Mario 64 Hacking
That would be awesome  . |
The Ultimate Koopa
Red Paragoomba
Account banned at user's request.
Since: 12-24-05
From: England
Last post: 6523 days
Last view: 6523 days
|
| Posted on 06-28-06 07:53 AM |
Link
| |
I agree wit Marioman64 about a totally new forum.  |
Dan
Purple Leever
Since: 11-18-05
Last post: 6303 days
Last view: 6294 days
|
| Posted on 06-28-06 08:28 AM |
Link
| |
Originally posted by The Ultimate koopa
I agree wit Marioman64 about a totally new forum.
That would be jumping the gun to say the least. One of the prerequisites for a new forum is lot of threads about the subject in question. There is like one thread about Mario 64 at the moment. |
Raccoon Sam
Boomerang Brother
Custom Title
Since: 11-20-05
From: Correct
Last post: 6295 days
Last view: 6294 days
|
| Posted on 06-28-06 09:13 AM |
Link
| |
I disagree.
Sure, Toad's Tool 64 is a powerful editor, but I really don't think that it would need its own Forum.
I can only imagine 78 topics containing nothing but "hey l00k my new hax its super peepee wurld 64!!1" .
I think it should just stay here in the Rom hacking. |
Shiryu
Gungun
Since: 02-24-06
Last post: 6296 days
Last view: 6294 days
|
| Posted on 06-28-06 09:16 AM |
Link
| |
Originally posted by Cara Zeltina
VL, don't allow any pressure to change your decisions in this. At the moment, a lot of people want the editor released because.. Well because frankly they're just overly excited. I've lived through the community (other communities actually) long enough to know it when I see it, and a lot of these people probably won't even do anything with the editor. (Just tinker with it and put it down once they get a scope for the limitations of the game.)
There will always be the dedicated and interested people who are eagerly awaiting the release of the editor, and whom plan to actually do something.. But, they're not the majority. And in fact, I dare say that these people are probably the only patient ones! So yes, you don't have to rush anything out.. Take it slow, go at your own pace, and do make sure you're satisfied with it before you ship it out the door. (And by the by, I think it was wise of you not to give out dates anymore, those are evil, evil things aren't they?)
As for this Open Source business.. Uh, I honestly never understood where people got the urge to undertake huge involving projects like that when one is on the way (or is already done.. look at Lunar Magic for example) - there is just.. no reason to really do so. It is a lot of work to invest when someone else (in this case, VL) is dedicated in creating a polished product.. And besides, he seems very reasonable, so I'm sure if anyone requested a viable feature or submited him an idea or some obscure findings, he would take it to heart and add it or otherwise consider it at least. (Right VL-Tone?)
Really, it is just crazy talk to go into such a mess (and expect poor VL to provide all the info he has up to this point, and "explain" the meaning of it all) so soon. An Open-Source Editor project is a good idea mind you, but I disagree with using this game in such a project right now.. There are plenty of other options.. Doesn't Zelda OoT for example have similiar formats? I know Mario Kart 64 did too (Yes I know HH is already on this, but he said he wanted it Open Source anyway, so there ya go), and probably others.. Maybe just go with something less complex? Would seem a better idea to me. At the moment, it kind of seems a kick in the teeth (to be blunt) to be talking about reinventing VL's wheel before he even has the first beta out...
I completely agree.
And about doing a new forum... the editor isn't even out, If we make a forum it would be either the chaos or inactivity, and it would get deleted like happened to the old version of SMW hacking... |
Darkdata
980
Since: 02-25-06
From: Newfoundland
Last post: 6294 days
Last view: 6294 days
|
| Posted on 06-28-06 09:58 AM |
Link
| |
The only way I would like to see the project go open source is when vl-tone does not update the project anymore/is going to give up on the project.
The best of both worlds. Or not. |
thegeek
Newcomer
Since: 06-27-06
Last post: 6528 days
Last view: 6528 days
|
| Posted on 06-28-06 11:11 AM |
Link
| |
Just to clear up one thing; I never meant this new project to be an open source version of Vl-tone's project at all, it would have to be completely independent.
If vl-tone wants to contribute that would be amazing, but we have to be self-sufficient.
Secondly, the license is not that important to me, gpl or not (just as long as there is one). The license/draft BGNG posted looks a lot like the lgpl.
I'm not sure why we'd want to allow commercial usage?
Now, some of you say why? "we already have an editor in the works"
The answer is imho obvious, though I have no doubt in vl-tone's skill it is pretty obvious that if we all pull together the end-result will be better, and progress will probaby be faster too.
In reading these forums, it seems there is a huuge amount of knowledge about game-hacking, but it's all pretty fragmented. It seems to me open-source has a _lot_ to offer.
I can only speak for myself, but I would really like to work on something like this, it combines fun and technical work that I enjoy. I tinkered a bit with the idea of trying to do an editor myself, but I came to realize that I'd just be duplicating vl-tone's work, probably always trailing behind.
Another reason to make an open-source editor is simply because if everyone has access to source, everyone can use the source and thus be able to make greather hacks! |
HyperHacker
Star Mario
Finally being paid to code in VB! If only I still enjoyed that. <_<
Wii #7182 6487 4198 1828
Since: 11-18-05
From: Canada, w00t!
My computer's specs, if anyone gives a damn.
STOP TRUNCATING THIS >8^(
Last post: 6295 days
Last view: 6295 days
|
| Posted on 06-28-06 06:00 PM |
Link
| |
If we make a new forum, it'd best be something generic like N64 Hacking or 3D Hacking, not just Mario 64 Hacking. Keep in mind that F-Zero X, Mario 64, Zelda OoT and Mario Kart 64 are the only ones that even have editors in the works (I think OoT does), and of those, only F-Zero X and Mario 64 are even close to being complete. It could go two ways: There might be a few threads about each game, maybe enough to warrant a new forum for them all but not one for each game. Or there could suddenly be a lot of discussion about them, which would leave the question "why does Maio 64 get its own forum and not the other 3"?
As for open-source, it's a good thing, but I agree that it seems almost insulting to talk about "making a good, open-source editor" when VL-Tone's isn't even up to V1.0 and is still in active development. I think VL should simply release the source under whatever license, with some links to the various threads and pages that hold the information, and if anyone wants to make a second editor, that should be all they need. It's always been my opinion that there should be at least 2 separate programs for every task, in case one doesn't work/isn't what you wanted/etc, but let's not completely ignore the guy who's doing most if not all of the work. (Who here besides the people who posted in this thread and my archived thread has even worked on SM64? And how many of those people have done any work on it recently?  )
FYI, about Mario Kart: Yes, the format is a bit similar, but not very. The commands, headers, and I think geometry data are all completely different. Also I haven't decided on a license yet. Most people think open source == GPL, and I'm really not a fan of that. Why shouldn't someone be able to use my code in a commercial app? Sure I'd be kinda upset if someone just took the whole program, changed a few minor things, and made a bunch of money off it, but all that means is I should have tried whatever they did. It seems greedy to deny everyone the right to copy one or two pieces of code into their commercial program just because someone might do that. |
Raccoon Sam
Boomerang Brother
Custom Title
Since: 11-20-05
From: Correct
Last post: 6295 days
Last view: 6294 days
|
| Posted on 06-28-06 06:03 PM |
Link
| |
| Advanced ROM Hacking anyone? |
Celice
Gordo
Since: 11-17-05
From: Oroville, CA
Last post: 6299 days
Last view: 6295 days
|
| Posted on 06-28-06 06:06 PM |
Link
| |
| At the rate this is going, N64 hacking won't be very advanced though |
Guy Perfect
Since: 11-18-05
Last post: 6296 days
Last view: 6295 days
|
| Posted on 06-29-06 12:13 AM |
Link
| |
Well, making a community Super Mario 64 editor may be a bit of a radical idea considering current circumstances, but that was just my take on the community project issue. I see no reason there can't be an editor made for any given game in the community.
I'm not sure about an Ocarina of Time editor... I know that VL-Tone is doing Super Mario 64, HyperHacker Mario Kart 64 and I have released an F-Zero X editor (albeit there IS an update pending)... I'd like to see more work done on N64 games. In my opinion, SNES and GBA have seen better days of hacking.
In any case, all this talk is straying from the original intent of this thread. If we wish to consider a community project or forum alterations, then we should probably do that in another thread. I also recommend that since it will give VL-Tone some breathing room. (-:
EDIT:
I have created such a thread for those who are interested.
(edited by BGNG on 06-28-06 11:36 PM)
|
psychobunny
Newcomer
Since: 06-15-06
Last post: 6529 days
Last view: 6529 days
|
| Posted on 06-29-06 12:39 AM |
Link
| |
hm. VL tone seems to know what he's doing (apart from previously creating several mario 64 editors as well), so i think maybe its best to leave it in his hands until he gives up on the project.
i think instead of reinventing the wheel (which is about to be invented.. lol) maybe we should concentrate on an editor for another n64 game (may i suggest OOT) as a community project from scratch. this way everyone has an idea of where things are going and there isnt a lot of explaining to do
.. just an idea.. lol |
FreeDOS +
Giant Red Koopa
Legion: freedos = fritos
Since: 11-17-05
From: Seattle
Last post: 6294 days
Last view: 6294 days
|
| Posted on 06-29-06 01:23 AM |
Link
| |
Originally posted by HyperMackerel
As for open-source, it's a good thing, but I agree that it seems almost insulting to talk about "making a good, open-source editor" when VL-Tone's isn't even up to V1.0 and is still in active development.
Boo-hoo, if people make their own editor (under whatever license), oh well. That's how the world works. It's fair to some, unfair to others; oh well.
Originally posted by HyperMackerel
Most people think open source == GPL, and I'm really not a fan of that. Why shouldn't someone be able to use my code in a commercial app?
Weather they equate "open source" to the GNU GPL doesn't matter, use whatever license you want. I'm a fan of nice, simple, licenses that just provide adaquete attribution, particularly the one provided by OpenBSD in /usr/src/share/misc/license.template; since of course I can't expect everyone, especially on Acmlm's Board to be running obsd, here's the contents of that file:
Originally posted by /usr/src/share/misc/license.template
Below is an example license to be used for new code in OpenBSD,
modeled after the ISC license.
It is important to specify the year of the copyright. Additional years
should be separated by a comma, e.g.
Copyright (c) 2003, 2004
If you add extra text to the body of the license, be careful not to
add further restrictions.
/*
* Copyright (c) CCYY YOUR NAME HERE
*
* Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software for any
* purpose with or without fee is hereby granted, provided that the above
* copyright notice and this permission notice appear in all copies.
*
* THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND THE AUTHOR DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES
* WITH REGARD TO THIS SOFTWARE INCLUDING ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF
* MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR BE LIABLE FOR
* ANY SPECIAL, DIRECT, INDIRECT, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES
* WHATSOEVER RESULTING FROM LOSS OF USE, DATA OR PROFITS, WHETHER IN AN
* ACTION OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTION, ARISING OUT OF
* OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THIS SOFTWARE.
*/
Also I should note that GPL does in fact allow commercial use, just not proprietary use. It's a common misconception that "Commercial = Proprietary" (similar to "open source = GPL") |
tahu363
Red Paragoomba
Since: 05-31-06
Last post: 6420 days
Last view: 6420 days
|
| Posted on 06-29-06 11:35 AM |
Link
| |
This is really not my thread, but in my opinion, i think we should focus on editor offshoots or community efforts to produce an alternative version of the editor if Vl_tone abandons the project or if we want to make it better.
perhaps we could give vl_tone ideas for updates, rather than make him feel bad by trying to make a better editor, after all, it was his idea!
A final thought...
perhaps it would be possible to import different 3d models into the game with a later version of the editor. for instance maybe we could import wario from a mario 64 ds rom into the normal version? after all, in the ds version wario has basically the same moves as mario. long jumps, jumping, running, punching..etc...
it may sound stupid, but it is just an idea. |
jensthecomposer
Paratroopa
Since: 05-18-06
From: Norway
Last post: 6298 days
Last view: 6294 days
|
| Posted on 06-29-06 01:43 PM |
Link
| |
| Importing 3d meshes is a option I think will come, but it will take some time!! |
Doritokiller
Mole
Since: 06-15-06
From: California
Last post: 6437 days
Last view: 6300 days
|
| Posted on 06-29-06 01:56 PM |
Link
| |
Just a Few Comments:
Mario129: Don't make short and pointless messages (ex. Good Point, I'm new, and questions that have been answered). Read the whole thread like the rest of us.
VL: I do feel guilty about you doing this alone; even after you said you prefer to do it yourself. Whatever floats your boat, I guess. I am patiently waiting for the editor, and I do hope that you don't rush the last few parts.
Until the next release where more editing is permitted, we will be kept busy with Summer and/or the beta release until then. |
| Thread closed
