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| Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Gay Fairy Tale... |
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NSNick Gohma IF ALL ELSE FAILS USE BOOZE                     Since: 11-17-05 From: Last post: 6467 days Last view: 6467 days |
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Originally posted by SilvershieldOriginally posted by maxNo, because heterosexuality is the "norm" and, as such, acts as a sort of control group. It describes the overwhelming majority of America's population and, even so, appears as a neutral rather than an influence in one direction or the other. However, since the homosexual issue has yet to be settled here in America, it is still politically charged (as was pointed out earlier) and so it carries with it the sense of a teacher imposing a political or moral standard on his students. Should only things with white people in them be read then? Because that's the "norm"? |
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Skydude Armos Knight  Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6738 days Last view: 6738 days |
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| I think you both missed quite a bit of the thrust of my argument, which SS explained in greater detail.
To max, no, it's not like saying that. I'm not saying that people can't take a stand for anything, I'm saying that teachers shouldn't be foisting their morals on their students in contentious issues of morality, which this currently is in the US. To NSN, again, it's not just that it's the norm, it's the norm of a rather contentious issue. Kids need to know about it, they need to discuss it, etc...but their parents are better to discuss the morals with than a politically-minded teacher. As I was telling Arwon last night on AIM, I would be just as upset with an overtly anti-homosexual book being read by teachers. |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite.  Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6467 days Last view: 6465 days |
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| Why is it an issue of morality though? Why can't it just be a fact of life like everything else is. It is certainly morally wrong for children to be taught that women are powerless, but pleanty of fairy tales show them as powerless rewards. | |||
Silvershield   580  Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6477 days Last view: 6465 days |
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| And, for the record, these kids are in third grade. They are seven years old. If you want to push your political views on your students, at least let them grow to a less impressionable age. That is one of my bigger gripes with this whole issue. | |||
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6465 days Last view: 6465 days |
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| But when she kissed the frog, he turned into prince charming.
I guess when people who are into zoophilia starting making waves that one will be out the window. When someone wants infantalism recognized Love You Forever will be gone. Perhaps we should pull Clow Arounds from class rooms because some people might be sexually aroused by that sort of thing...and what if that becomes a political issue. |
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Skydude Armos Knight Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6738 days Last view: 6738 days |
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| If those become huge political issues, we might see those things, and depending on the nature of the movement, I may or may not support that.
At the moment, at least, they're not, so no harm, no foul. |
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Ziff B2BB BACKTOBASICSBITCHES Since: 11-18-05 From: A room Last post: 6465 days Last view: 6465 days |
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| Then all fairy tales concerning straight marriage need to stop being read too, it would only be fair that way. Because it isn't just gay that's being politicized here, it's opponents are politicizing their own sexualities in order to justify and stand by their positions. | |||
drjayphd Torosu OW! BURNY!  Since: 11-18-05 From: CT Last post: 6468 days Last view: 6465 days |
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Originally posted by Silvershield Not unlike sodas, hypotheticals RULE! (I'm certain that SS won't respond the way I'm expecting, because he's a decent and intelligent guy. But this is all about pushing stereotypes which aren't true, riiight?) Let's say some enterprising elementary-school students start up their very own Bible Club, complete with all the trappings of this one. Presumably, a faculty member would probably be quite involved. That would be just as bad if they were pushing a narrow-minded, irritating branch of Christianity (emphasis on BRANCH!) on their students, yes? (I'm fairly certain SS will say it is, but those who wouldn't seem to be the ones who'd come to mind.) Essentially, the point is "is the problem that they're pushing something or that they're promoting something you don't agree with?" Which assumes a lot that just isn't necessarily the case. I do wish the beat-you-upside-the-head theocrats would read more than just one book of the Bible. |
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Skydude Armos Knight Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6738 days Last view: 6738 days |
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| Well, there's a difference, I think, between a club organized by the students, and something the teacher is reading to the entire class. In the former case, the teacher isn't pushing anything on the students, they're choosing to be involved, and presumably their parents know they're involved as well. The problem is not a teacher being involved in moral teaching...the problem is a teacher deciding to push his/her morality on the students without the parents having any say in the matter.
Edit: didn't read the link before...it doesn't really say clearly what the students are actually doing, so I can't really give an opinion on that. (edited by Skydude on 04-27-06 11:53 AM) |
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Sinfjotle Lordly? No, not quite. Since: 11-17-05 From: Kansas Last post: 6467 days Last view: 6465 days |
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| You bring morality up again when the general populace in that state already decided it was perfectly fine. It isn't morality, the teacher is using a fairy tale to show them what it is like in the state they live in for some people. | |||
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Skydude Armos Knight Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6738 days Last view: 6738 days |
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| No, they decided they were alright with gay marriage. They didn't decide they were alright with the teacher teaching that morality.
For an example on the other side of the spectrum, Texas supports the death penalty. Would it be alright if teachers read kids stories in support of that without the parents' consent? |
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Silvershield 580 Since: 11-19-05 From: Emerson, New Jersey Last post: 6477 days Last view: 6465 days |
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Originally posted by drjayphdYour prediction is right  . If a bunch of kids start up some sort of organization that promotes any sort of specific belief - and if a faculty member supports it - it becomes an issue. I'm not really sure if the students themselves, organizing themselves without any sort of adult moderator, should be broken up though. I'd lean toward no, but either side could be argued I guess. |
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Tommathy Since: 11-17-05 From: Cloud Nine, Turn Left and I'm There~ Last post: 6465 days Last view: 6465 days |
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Originally posted by Skydude Well, yeah, Little Red Ridinghood, the wolf gets the death penalty. |
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6466 days Last view: 6466 days |
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| And the witch in Hansel and Gretel.
Vigilante justice, even. |
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Skydude Armos Knight Since: 02-18-06 From: Stanford, CA Last post: 6738 days Last view: 6738 days |
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| In all fairness, those don't really count as the death penalty since those people weren't executed so much as killed in self-defense. | |||
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Tommathy Since: 11-17-05 From: Cloud Nine, Turn Left and I'm There~ Last post: 6465 days Last view: 6465 days |
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| Sleeping Beauty was a death sentence commuted to eternal slumber with possibility of pardon. | |||
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Arwon Bazu Since: 11-18-05 From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia Last post: 6466 days Last view: 6466 days |
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| The Three Little Pigs promotes vegetarianism. | |||
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Deleted User Banned    Since: 05-08-06 Last post: None Last view: 6466 days |
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Originally posted by Bio What the hell kind of school did you go to? We never had religious people come in and say "if you don't do what they say you will go to hell". Also, on the subject of the bible referring to Hell or not... Originally posted by Matthew 5:29 Well damn, there's one right there. Originally posted by Matthew 10:28 Well shit, look, there's "hell" again! Originally posted by Matthew 16:18 Not exactly hell, but close. Originally posted by Matthew 23:15 Hmm! Originally posted by 23:33 ...! Too lazy to copy and paste the rest: Bible Verses - Selected Topics in the Bible - "Hell" Passages about Hell in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) I'm lazy, and these were just a few of the results that popped up on Google, so heh. But yeah, hell's definitely in the bible. =\ Ok, so I guess I should weigh in on the topic. You know,as long as they aren't doing anything implicitly sexual, I don't object to their presence, provided it's done so for the sake of the story, and not that of pushing some kind of agenda. |
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Deleted User Banned Since: 05-08-06 Last post: None Last view: 6466 days |
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Originally posted by Bio ...if it is actual people judging others... ...then they can't claim that they have God or say that they are christian, because whoever judges, will be judged his/herself... Christians are NOT supposed to judge, they are only supposed to direct, and tell them what is says in the bible, but the convictions of God are what's needed to be watched out for, not everyone saying: "you're going to hell because you don't believe a, b, or c". ... the sad thing is a lot of christians can do that... I try not to... even though I don't believe in homosexuality... but I won't go flame-crazy... I'm just going to keep it cool and calm guys... and have a rather mature discussion with you guys... |
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Tommathy Since: 11-17-05 From: Cloud Nine, Turn Left and I'm There~ Last post: 6465 days Last view: 6465 days |
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| ...while you talk... like... Captain Kirk... or someone... trying to hold a conversation... while their mouth is... otherwise engaged... *cough*
So, anyways, the original question, was the teacher correct in reading such a story or not? What gives the story more or less, umm, propiety, I suppose, than, say, Cinderella, Rapunzel, Snow White, Amedlia Bedilia, or the Stinky Cheese Man? |
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