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Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Abortion: whose choice is it? New poll | | Thread closed
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Silvershield

580








Since: 11-19-05
From: Emerson, New Jersey

Last post: 6291 days
Last view: 6279 days
Posted on 11-13-06 10:47 PM Link
Originally posted by Pvt. Prinny
Moral being relative has a lot to do with it. Deciding what is right and what is wrong has a lot to do with it. Saying your right in anything that isn't dead set right, 1 + 1 = 2 for instance, is foolish. Pressing your "rightness" onto others is just plain oppressive.
I addressed the idea of moral relativity in an earlier post.

Originally posted by Pvt. Prinny
Not everyone believes killing a "baby" is wrong, you believe it is wrong. Some believe it is justifiable and so they do it.
Not to take the concept to the extreme, but aren't you just saying that I can do whatever I want as long as I think it's alright? I should be able to steal, and cheat, and kill, because such acts do not conflict with my personal morals. I think that's a pretty questionable philosophy.
Sinfjotle
Lordly? No, not quite.








Since: 11-17-05
From: Kansas

Last post: 6281 days
Last view: 6279 days
Posted on 11-13-06 11:39 PM Link
Then you're hurting other people's rights.

No, fetus aren't people and don't have rights.
Silvershield

580








Since: 11-19-05
From: Emerson, New Jersey

Last post: 6291 days
Last view: 6279 days
Posted on 11-14-06 12:22 AM Link
Originally posted by Pvt. Prinny
Then you're hurting other people's rights.

No, fetus aren't people and don't have rights.
We keep returning to this issue. It's inevitable, I guess. No one side will ever convince the other side of its position until it can prove that a fetus either is or is not a human. Every other argument rests on this.
Sinfjotle
Lordly? No, not quite.








Since: 11-17-05
From: Kansas

Last post: 6281 days
Last view: 6279 days
Posted on 11-14-06 12:49 AM Link
Define human.
Silvershield

580








Since: 11-19-05
From: Emerson, New Jersey

Last post: 6291 days
Last view: 6279 days
Posted on 11-14-06 01:08 AM Link
Originally posted by Pvt. Prinny
Define human.
I can't "define human," because you'll inevitably come up with some sort of loophole to anything I can say, but if you show me an organism, I will tell you if it is human or not.

A fetus is human. I would say that, since it is definitely alive and definitely has the genetic code of the human species, it is human. I'm sure there's some way to define more specific criteria, because it has already been pointed out that any individual human cell fits those two attributes but is not individually human, but I'm not about to devote my time to arguing that point right now because I think people are aware of the spirit of what I mean but nonetheless seek semantic loopholes.

Edit for clarity.

(edited by Silvershield on 11-14-06 12:35 AM)
Sinfjotle
Lordly? No, not quite.








Since: 11-17-05
From: Kansas

Last post: 6281 days
Last view: 6279 days
Posted on 11-14-06 01:14 AM Link
I don't know what you mean by spirit, please elaborate.

Edit: Worded fairly poorly and misread what you posted... I think.

(edited by Pvt. Prinny on 11-14-06 12:21 AM)
Silvershield

580








Since: 11-19-05
From: Emerson, New Jersey

Last post: 6291 days
Last view: 6279 days
Posted on 11-14-06 01:18 AM Link
Originally posted by Pvt. Prinny
I don't know what you mean by spirit, because I don't know what a spirit is.

Is this your way of saying you want to preserve "life" because of your religion?
Definition 19.
Sinfjotle
Lordly? No, not quite.








Since: 11-17-05
From: Kansas

Last post: 6281 days
Last view: 6279 days
Posted on 11-14-06 01:22 AM Link
Wasn't quick enough to that edit button apparently, but yeah, I read your post a few times and saw what you meant.

Still don't know exactly what you mean though than "abortion is bad cause I say so".
Silvershield

580








Since: 11-19-05
From: Emerson, New Jersey

Last post: 6291 days
Last view: 6279 days
Posted on 11-14-06 01:33 AM Link
Originally posted by Pvt. Prinny
Wasn't quick enough to that edit button apparently, but yeah, I read your post a few times and saw what you meant.
I just assumed it was a common enough idiom without me having to explain it, and didn't take into account that the context might make it difficult to understand at first .

Originally posted by Pvt. Prinny
Still don't know exactly what you mean though than "abortion is bad cause I say so".
Hasn't this entire thread been about me defending why I think abortion is wrong?
Sinfjotle
Lordly? No, not quite.








Since: 11-17-05
From: Kansas

Last post: 6281 days
Last view: 6279 days
Posted on 11-14-06 01:41 AM Link
Yeah, you value life and believe the fetus is life, but why is that your stance?
Silvershield

580








Since: 11-19-05
From: Emerson, New Jersey

Last post: 6291 days
Last view: 6279 days
Posted on 11-14-06 01:44 AM Link
Originally posted by Pvt. Prinny
Yeah, you value life and believe the fetus is life, but why is that your stance?
Why do I believe what I do, or how do I defend what I believe? Your question is slightly ambiguous.
Sinfjotle
Lordly? No, not quite.








Since: 11-17-05
From: Kansas

Last post: 6281 days
Last view: 6279 days
Posted on 11-14-06 01:48 AM Link
Sorry, why do you believe what you believe?
Silvershield

580








Since: 11-19-05
From: Emerson, New Jersey

Last post: 6291 days
Last view: 6279 days
Posted on 11-14-06 01:54 AM Link
Originally posted by Pvt. Prinny
Sorry, why do you believe what you believe?
I've been pro-life for as long as I remember, and I would imagine that it originally stemmed from my religion, but it has since grown into a rational opinion. Just like I am anti-war, anti-capital punishment, and anti-euthanasia (all of which were almost certainly directly influenced by my religion at first, as well), I am anti-abortion because I consider every human life to be sacred. Not necessarily sacred in a religious sense - though that is a component of it - but sacred insomuch as I recognize human beings with a sort of empathy and understanding that I cannot afford to any other species. Being a human myself, I instinctively and rationally seek to preserve my own kind, both for the well-being of the species as a whole (the instinctive part) and because I can only truly understand and empathize with other humans (the rational part).

I feel like I can't find the words to truly say what I want to say, but that's close enough.
Sinfjotle
Lordly? No, not quite.








Since: 11-17-05
From: Kansas

Last post: 6281 days
Last view: 6279 days
Posted on 11-14-06 02:04 AM Link
That clarifies a lot.

Your idea is deeply rooted, and you follow through with it, which I can respect. As you said earlier we'll never be able to convince the other when it hits the heart of the issue, so apparently it's an agree to disagree?
Silvershield

580








Since: 11-19-05
From: Emerson, New Jersey

Last post: 6291 days
Last view: 6279 days
Posted on 11-14-06 02:08 AM Link
Originally posted by Pvt. Prinny
That clarifies a lot.

Your idea is deeply rooted, and you follow through with it, which I can respect. As you said earlier we'll never be able to convince the other when it hits the heart of the issue, so apparently it's an agree to disagree?
I guess. I've thrown the best arguments I have, so to speak, and they have hardly dented the opinions of anyone who is pro-choice. Just like every argument by a pro-choice person, no matter how rational and defensible, has made little progress in changing me. Dunno what more to say.
Arwon

Bazu


 





Since: 11-18-05
From: Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia

Last post: 6280 days
Last view: 6280 days
Posted on 11-14-06 08:19 AM Link
I once read a rather stunningly revealing article in a philosophy magazine which pointed out that if you start from a first principle of "suffering is evil" rather than "life is sacred" you come to an extremely different set of moral and ethical principles.

I leave it as an exercise to the reader to follow through the reasoning and ramifications of the two first-principles on a whole range of issues.
Silvershield

580








Since: 11-19-05
From: Emerson, New Jersey

Last post: 6291 days
Last view: 6279 days
Posted on 11-14-06 02:51 PM Link
Originally posted by Arwon
I once read a rather stunningly revealing article in a philosophy magazine which pointed out that if you start from a first principle of "suffering is evil" rather than "life is sacred" you come to an extremely different set of moral and ethical principles.

I leave it as an exercise to the reader to follow through the reasoning and ramifications of the two first-principles on a whole range of issues.
But the initial issue, then, comes down to the fact that many crimes are not necessarily "wrong" because they cause suffering. I could murder someone, for example, but he if was asleep or sedated during the act then he would hardly suffer. I don't think the experience of pain or anxiety is a prerequisite for something to be considered harmful, bad, or wrong.
Ziff
B2BB
BACKTOBASICSBITCHES


 





Since: 11-18-05
From: A room

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Posted on 11-14-06 03:11 PM Link
But what about the social suffering that you inflict surrounding him?
Tauwasser

Red Goomba








Since: 11-19-05

Last post: 6371 days
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Posted on 11-14-06 03:34 PM Link
Please elaborate then.






cYa,

Tauwasser
Silvershield

580








Since: 11-19-05
From: Emerson, New Jersey

Last post: 6291 days
Last view: 6279 days
Posted on 11-14-06 05:22 PM Link
Originally posted by Plus Sign Abomination
But what about the social suffering that you inflict surrounding him?
What if he is a homeless man with no relationships, whether family or friends or otherwise, and nobody would even notice he is gone? Is it alright then?

Originally posted by Tauwasser
[images]
By the time a women realizes she is pregnant, the embryo is already quite sophisticated. And that sophistication only increases through the later weeks, right up until the time that abortion becomes illegal.
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Acmlm's Board - I3 Archive - World Affairs/Debate - Abortion: whose choice is it? | Thread closed


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