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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - - Posts by hhallahh |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38  Posts: 44/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Hmmm? Why would you say someone who uses an ASM compiler or a hex editor is not a hacker just because they didn't program it themselves? Kinda stupid =/ I'm not familiar with ASM and the like.. but that's a point, it's somewhat of a blurry line. I'm not going to define what "hacking" is and isn't.. I'll leave that to my critics.  ie. Gavin.First of all... I'd like to know what your definition of "godly" is. Godly is like Mario Adventure - something so far beyond what can normally be accomplished that other people who don't have advanced skills can't hope to match it, and hence probably won't try. First of all... without the competent hackers actually doing the work to find this data and make editors for it... the incompetent hackers wouldn't be around at all. And secondly... good hacks should be something to inspire you. Not discourage you. If anything, the hoards of shitty hacks made by incompetant people are what's discouraging. Well, so you admit that editors would have to be designed in order to have a healthy community, right? I totally agree. I also say that those editors have to have the potential to come close to what the best hackers can put out. Good hacks inspire, of course... but not many people will have the devotion to learn hex or ASM or whatever just to make a hack. That's why a hack like DW:TLC is better for the community than a hack like Mario Adventure... most of DW:TLC can be accomplished through Lunar Edit and a handful of other tools, but Mario Adventure... you can't do anything near that with the current crop of tools. Tools to "bridge the gap" being necessary? Haw. Basically you're saying people who know what they're doing should do all the work and leave a trail of breadcrumbs so that people who don't want to actually do the work can still make their own hack. That kind of community can die and rot, for all I care. The competant hackers will still produce the same hacks without all the metaphorical leeches. And you know what? That's a perfectly valid line of reasoning, I guess. I'm just saying that if you want to see a community that produces good hacks, you can't be stingy about creating tools to allow people to do so. This is common sense. If DahrkDaiz doesn't give a damn whether or not anyone else makes good Mario 3 hacks, his call... it's not his responsibility to make sure other people can do it. My point is just that if the access barriers are too high, the community will suck, and you won't see many good hacks. I'm mainly responding to the idea that having powerful tools means that hacks get crappier... of course, the average quality of hacks may decrease (although I don't think they have... some hacks may look bad nowadays, but that's compared to good modern hacks, and not the stuff coming out 2 years ago..) but there are plenty of good hackers who would never have a chance otherwise. And it's not being greedy for talented designers without technical skills to want someone to build a tool for them. It's absolutely stupid to say, "If you want to do X, then you should have to do it the shitty way that I did." It's only being greedy when you act like you have the divine right for someone to make a tool for you. Fu kind of reminds me of God. And the SMW hacking community are the Jews in Egypt. And they continually whine, "why is God being so cold to us?" Even after he lead them from slavery, etc... |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 45/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Okay, I don't mean tools like ASM compilers of hex editors or whatever that take a fair degree of technical knowledge. I used the War3 analogy cause that's what I was more familiar with... sure, if I learned a whole damn scripting language, I could make maps on the same level as other people, but you know what? I don't have time for that. And so I never bothered, and it's the world's loss. The MSPaint analogy kinda works. If you had a contest to see who could do the best MSPaint picture, and there was one or two guys who could "do more than you could with photoshop and hundreds of filters", you'd probably end up with no one really entering the contest. (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 05:50 PM) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 46/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Looks pretty nice. 0_o; Keep up the good work. | |||
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 47/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| And you know what? That's their problem. If they don't have the desire to make a hack on the same par as MA... then they're never going to. They could have all the best tools in the world... but without the drive to make something like that... it'll never come to life. And so, you say, if Beethoven could never have been bothered to create his own piano, then Beethoven would never have been a great pianist? I'm inclined to disagree. Granted, being passionate about a hack enough to put so much work into it probably means you'll take the care to make a good hack, but it certainly isn't a necessary condition. Look, maybe my logic would be easier to swallow if I presented it in counterconditional form: IF there were not as many good tools as there are now, THEN there would be fewer good hacks (completed or in progress.) This should be indisputable. And if you agree, then you also agree that good editors often play crucial roles in a good hack. The main problem with my argument is that I can't demonstrate that people get discouraged beyond my own anecdotal evidence... because the discouraged people wouldn't be around here to begin with. I'm sure that there are a handful of people who are inspired by advanced hacks, and that's great. However, if the hack wasn't so advanced, do we know how many people would have been inspired then? I'd venture to guess that more people would be trying. I can't prove it, exactly, but anecdotal evidence can't disprove it either. And I'm kind of upset that you used the word "stingy". Making an editor is generous. You're not stingy for not walking people through the hacking process step by step.... or for not putting weeks/months of work into an editor for other people to use. I consider calling people who want more "greedy" as being stingy. Granted, there haven't been any breakthroughs recently that will necessitate new editors, but there may be in the future (with SPC hacking, or sprite hacking, etc.) It is generous to make tools. It's stingy to resent people who use the tools when you had to do it the hard way. It's not greedy for people to want something. Hell, I want a million dollars. It's only greedy for me to act like someone out there should be giving me a million dollars. It's an important difference. I'm sure many here will agree: level design and good graphics out weight ASM changes. But let's not kid ourselves... there's a degree of professionalism that is required as well. I mean, if you look around here, if your new hack doesn't have neat ripped graphics and a spiffy overworld, you're at a serious disadvantage in comparison to other hacks, unless your level design is so amazing that everyone is begging for more.. but I haven't really seen that happen. I mean... I've always wondered why Mario World hacking is more popular than SMB3 hacking. The general consensus is that Mario 3 is a better game, both in mechanics and level design. MA only makes it better. I mean, is it only the fact that LM happens to be for Mario World and not Mario 3 that makes LM popular? Why was LM for SMW to begin with, then? Anyways, I'll just summon my points up real concisely, so there won't be confusion to those who try to refute them: 1. Better tools = More good hacks. High "access barriers" prevent people who would normally create a hack from starting... better tools will lower these access barriers. 2. High standards of hacking = Mixed bag. Obviously, high standards means that people will be encouraged to make high-quality hacks. However, if the standards are too high - especially when they require abilities beyond the capacities of the easy-to-use tools - then this will raise access barriers, and you'll have high-quality hacks, but not many of them. 3. Designers with good potential can be discouraged. They simply don't have the time to overcome the access barriers. 4. These rules aren't set in stone. Some people will overcome these barriers. If you want to argue my points, argue the logic beneath my previous three assertions... don't say something like, "well, person X is making a hack, so you're wrong." |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 48/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| I think the point is more that Beethoven didn't create his own piano, so he's not a great piano maker. One person says the hacker is the piano maker, the other says the hacker is the composer. In my oppinion, being a hacker is more about immersing oneself in the guts of how something works than what one actually does, so level designers are sometimes hackers and utility makers are often hackers, but neither has to be one. No one is arguing this... At least, I'm not. The point I was trying to make is that it's silly to say that if someone is unwilling to devote the time to creating a great hack from the ground up, then they would never be able to make a great hack regardless of how many tools you gave them. (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 07:54 PM) (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 07:55 PM) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 49/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Well, then who cares about being a good hacker, if it has little to do with making a good hack (since the role of hacker and designer are seperate)? It's the finished product that counts. The editor is what sets the standard, not the hacker. No, the hacks are what set the standard. An editor is just a tool, it's like saying that the piano sets a standard for what makes a good pianist. (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 08:12 PM) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 50/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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Originally posted by Kyouji "Kagami" Craw It's not my fault if you don't understand it. No one else seems to have had major problems with it. |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 51/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| In my own defense, since there was confusion over hacker vs. designer before, I don't think it's "stupid" to be meticulous over the use of the terms. I don't want to play fast and loose and open myself up to attack from other people again. That's all. I agree that generally, the standard is set by the editors. If most people can't go beyond what the editors can do, then the standard will be set by the editor's capacity.. because the actual hacks created will be at a standard determined by the editor. However, if there are several hacks created which exceed these standards, then the bar is raised. You said yourself that your work has inspired others to ASM hack - how would this be the case if you had not created a higher standard for others to strive for? Obviously, the hack you created must've set a higher standard for others, regardless of whether there's a tool that can easily emulate your work. (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 08:52 PM) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 52/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| So then people who want to make an excellent hack get discouraged. You want to keep splicing terms? | |||
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 53/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Which brings us back to 10 or 20 posts ago, where I say: 3. Designers with good potential can be discouraged. They simply don't have the time to overcome the access barriers. Only I replace "good" with "excellent", and further assert that if better editors existed, they wouldn't be discouraged. I might even throw in a piano analogy to piss off Blisseh. |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 54/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| And I said that that's exactly the problem when you have hackers that are 10 steps ahead... that those who would strive to make a relatively excellent hack would also have to be 10 steps ahead, and it just isn't worth all the effort.. so maybe they hack SMW instead. and that's not fair to me, since I spent hard long hours doing the work, when some newb with little experience could reproduce with a few button clicks. And that's a terrible attitude, which harms the community. You've certainly earned the right to gloat.. I've never said otherwise.. but I'm saying that it will limit the potential of the community, when the great hackers are resentful of the idea of the masses being able to emulate the fruits of their labour without any effort. (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 09:10 PM) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 55/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Hey, I'm not telling you what you should or should not do, what your moral imperitive is. I'm just saying what I believe to be good for the community. Competition is good. But having to have huge amounts of knowledge that should be unnecessary is bad, and will discourage competition before it even starts. It's common sense that if you want recognition - which many people do - then you should try to earn recognition in a field you can excel at. But some fields aren't worth excelling at because it's too difficult to get started in them to begin with. It's a simple judgement: "Will the outcome be worth the effort?" If there are a lot of "no"s - which there will be when there are no editors - then the community suffers. It's just that simple. I'm not telling you that it's wrong for you to make really advanced hacks, just that there are consequences. | |||
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 56/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Yea, well, you wonder why the SMW community is the only one with its own forum? Innovation isn't bad. Someone has to raise the bar. It just can't be too much at one time. I don't mind that FuSoYa hasn't included SMB3 pipes (ignoring the fact that he doesn't use custom blocks at all in LM), because it's not like people are gonna get discouraged over something so miniscule. Now, if he left out the overworld and GFX editors or something, people might begin to get annoyed.. "Fuck the community" is kinda a valid stance, but... well, nevermind, it isn't. No one works alone. If they did, hacks would suck a lot more. (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 10:05 PM) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 57/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Well, there are multiple senses of community.. to me, it doesn't really matter which one you use. You could define the SMW community as the aggregate total of all SMW hacking activity. If people are discouraged, the community is smaller, and hence it is "harmed." Or you could define it through places like this... it's pretty naive to think that if boards like these didn't exist, things would get along just fine. People pool their resources, give constructive criticism, etc... all things that improve hacks as a whole. How can you say there's no point? If everyone had to rip their own graphics, discover the ASM offsets for themselves, etc... I'd imagine that people would be worse off. The tools would also be weaker as well. Just stuff like that. You can say that the community isn't that important to every hacker, but to deny that it has an overall positive effect on hacks is really strange. |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 58/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Well, I'm glad you finally agree with my logic. However, as I've said about 23 times already, you or BMF or FuSoYa or whoever else.. you're perfectly free to do as you please. SMO will probably be pretty damn good... but it won't be unbeatable. I don't want to start nuancing with specific examples, though, after it's taken 50 posts just to kinda establish my original point. (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 10:33 PM) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 59/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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Originally posted by hhallahh Originally posted by hhallahh Originally posted by hhallahh Originally posted by hhallahh Originally posted by hhallahh Originally posted by hhallahh Hablais anglais? And I request that this topic not be closed, because I think it's an interesting one and I'd like to hear the thoughts of others on it and I don't think a new thread would get off the ground. Just because you've run out of constructive arguments, DD, doesn't mean that it should end. (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 10:52 PM) (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 11:00 PM) (edited by hhallahh on 04-10-04 11:03 PM) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 60/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| I guess.. I don't really ascribe to that philosophy.. "I created the thread, I can destroy it whenever I want"... but... not my call, eh? | |||
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 61/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| You know, if you have some actual points that you'd like to make, I'd love to hear them. I've answered everything you've said, and if my logic was so skewed, then it would be simple to drill me on these points. But I don't think you can do that... and so that's all you have to say? "You don't understand"? It gets somewhat irritating. I lead DD around for a while, shut him down, the least I'd expect is a "let's agree to disagree", not this "I can't really make any defensible points, but you're an idiot anyways" stuff. (edited by hhallahh on 04-11-04 05:37 AM) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 62/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Well, I have to commend you for actually responding to what I said, as opposed to what you feel I'm saying, even though I've said it's not the case several times. Those who are "destined" to make an excellent hack will, despite whats already out there. And this is where I strongly disagree. Like I said (I wonder how many sentances open with "like I said..", I can't prove that people get discouraged, but you can't prove that they don't. I guess that... duh, anyone who is "destined" to make a great hack will make a great hack, or else they weren't destined to begin with, but you didn't really mean to phrase it as a tautology, did you? But yea. If FPI or whoever is destined to make excellent hacks, then.. why does he do it with LM and SMW? Why not any other game: Obvious answer is because LM exists, implying that if LM did not exist, FPI would not be making SR2, implying that... maybe he wouldn't be making a hack at all. Who knows. You'd have to ask him. Would he make a hack for a community where the standard of "excellent" is too high? I doubt it. Originally posted by DahrkDaiz Originally posted by DahrkDaiz Contradiction... but I'm glad if you backed down from the first point. It's a start. And, of course, FPI is free to make an excellent hack by SMW standards, because the tools enable him to keep up with hackers who are more experienced with ASM and such in terms of hack quality. But the SMW community, as we all know, has a better set of tools to begin with. Would the same situation apply in the Mario 3 community? If someone made a hack with just new levels (and maybe new graphics? Idunno the exact capacity), could it become as well known as MA? Maybe. It's possible. It'd face a serious disadvantage from the start. The SMW scene, since it obviously has better tools... yea, anyone can make an excellent hack (or a terrible one.) That's the good thing about it, the standards of excellence are within reach to your average designer. Not so much the case in other communities.. To say that a designer with good potential can never be discouraged or be inclined to change his medium is really strange. Do so many people hack SMW because they consider SMW to be the best game of all time? I doubt it. I'm sure a lot of them would rather be hacking Super Metroid, or Yoshi's Island, or Sonic 2, or what-have-you. The reason they don't, of course, is because it's stupid to start from scratch and have to build from the ground up. They'll go to the place where there's more hacking support... obviously, it's no coincidence that the communities with the best tools are also the largest communities. And if LM existed for Mario 3, then we'd be having the same debate, only on the "Super Mario 3 hacking" forum. It doesn't matter what people should do, how much they should learn in order to hack, etc. I think it's stupid to say that whoever is unwilling to learn would've been a crappy hacker anyways. I haven't really raised the thought of inter-community competition, but it's a relevant one as well.. 1) Designers design for a purpose. If the expected payoff isn't greater then the expected investment of effort, they won't start to begin with. 2) The purpose is often recognition, if not completely then to a large extent. 3) A medium with better tools is always preferable, as long as the medium isn't so saturated with talent that your hack wouldn't really stand out (which is kinda the case here... each community has a capacity...) 4) If the standards in a given community are too high, the designer will either find another or quit. Yea. *yawn* To me, it just stands to reason... if, say, DW:TLC and SMO and SR2 and Sendy's World and what have you were all coming out... but no editors existed whatsoever... then a lot of people would say, "screw that, I can never compete with that (or, rather, it's not worth the effort), maybe I should just hack Mario 3 (which has editors!)" If whatever Mario 3 editors were as powerful or more powerful than LM, you really think that there would be no difference in the relative number of quality hacks coming from each community? I'd.. beg to differ. But I'm too tired to really stay lucid at the moment. I'll stop here. |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 63/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Lunar Magic was for Super Mario World for a reason, you know - There's a lot you can do with the SMW engine, and even if LM was for another game, people still would recognize that and probably a lot of people would go with whatever game LM was for, but to say that all the people who went to SMW for LM would go to SMB3 for LM or Sonic 2 for LM or YI for LM is just foolhardy. Well, I wouldn't go to the extreme conclusion that everyone would hack Mario 3.. I'm sure you'd have your DD for SMW who makes a good SMW hack regardless. Personally, I think Mario 3 > SMW, especially if you're talking about the SMAS version.my tactlessness was actually supposed to be something of a joke. nobody has a great sense of humor anymore As Blisseh said, if anyone's sense of humour is off, it's yours... your post was indistinguishable from a commonplace flame, and so I don't see how I was supposed to know it was any difference. You didn't prove anything to me, I still stand by everything I've said and more people agree with me than you, try coming to the channel I visit, you'll be seriously outnumbered. And, mind you, there's no such thing as an SMB3 hacking community. Rom hackers are rom hackers, I don't care what game they're hacking. We all do this to have fun, if you're goal is to get recognition and think you need a better editor to get there, then get the hell out our "community". Fin. Now for my elitist moment.. I don't give a damn what you or anyone else thinks based on the fact that you think something. Idiots in numbers, you know? If someone had some real argument against me, I'm sure it could be made, and I've been inviting people for a while to (unsucessfully make it.) I don't care what you think, since this post is about how things are and not how they should be. It doesn't matter whether people agree with me, since I'm not trying to change anything. I'm not asking for a "communistic community", and even if I was, they way you put it is absolutely absurd. At best, I would hope for a community where anyone has the means to realize their hacking ideals as well as anyone else. That doesn't mean all hacks will be equal, it'd mean that crappy designers would make crappy hacks, and good designers would make good hacks. Shock. Horror. We don't have the exact opposite at the moment - for all its glory or whatever, MA could've been better, and so there is room for a person of average skill, yet better design potential, to exceed it on some levels, which is great. No, I didn't win, I didn't convince you, I don't think you could be convinced unless I had, like, solid statistics or something, which I never will. But I reduced you to petty sarcasm, which I know is as close as I'll get. And hell.. I'd ask you to invite your channel here... it'd be fun for me, but it probably wouldn't be very productive. But if any of them are better than you, yea... bring 'em on. My main problem with you is that you tend not to debate the point, and instead say stupid things like, "you're advocating communism, and communism is lame." Christ. (edited by hhallahh on 04-11-04 04:25 PM) |
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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - - Posts by hhallahh |
