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1 user currently in Rom Hacking:  hukka |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - An alternative to Romhacking |
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MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67  Posts: 1075/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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I was thinking the other day that in essence a binary file is just a really big number. Take Zelda 3 for instance. It consists of #20000 bytes i.e. 1 megabyte. A file that is 10 bytes long would have 256^10 possible configurations, since each byte can assume 256 values. So then what are the odds of getting a particular game using a random number generator? Assuming ideal randomness, Zelda 3 is 1 file out of approximately (2.5963705678310007761265964957269 x 10^157826)^262144 files.  Just think how vast that number is. This does not take into account the fact that there could be equivalent compilations of the game, which would make this significantly lower, and there is also empty space in the game, which is useless data. Still I hope you now realize just how unique a game can be. |
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Geiger Buster Beetle Level: 34  Posts: 180/460 EXP: 241080 For next: 12571 Since: 03-15-04 From: Indianapolis, IN, USA Since last post: 6 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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| Ah, but uniqueness is measured only in its relativity. So if one rather unlikely random number is slightly similar to an equally unlikely number, even just a little, one will appear to be a one-off (or cheap imitation) of the other, despite their mathematical uniqueness. Keep this in mind the next time you play yet another Final Fight engine game.  ---Evil Peer |
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MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67 Posts: 1079/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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| True. But how cool would it be if you just ran out a random number of this sort and it ended up being a real cool game somehow (without glitches lol)? Shitty facsimiles don't count, but yeah I thought of that. Every possible romhack is a close approximation to the original game, though numerically it is likely to be quite distant. |
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Dish Spiny Level: 38 Posts: 208/596 EXP: 355646 For next: 14801 Since: 03-15-04 From: Disch Since last post: 18 days Last activity: 18 days |
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| It would have to be one hell of a random number generator. Random number generators usually produce number that are, more or less, random (well... sequenced and random... see below). To make an operable executable there has to be patterns here and there. My understanding of how pseudo-random number generators work, is you just have a big math formula with produces garbage numbers... kind of like: R2 = (m * R1) + a where 'm' and 'a' are carefully chosen numbers (note they're probably much more complex, but this is just the idea). R2 is the random number you're given, and would also be used as R1 when the formula is run again, giving you a new number... and a 'seed' is used as the starting R1 when the number generator is inited (usually the system time is used as the seed, or some other rapidly changing variable on the system. Older systems like the NES might count a var up every frame and stop as soon as the user presses a button and use that as the seed). A random number generator is really just a very large string of numbers, each of which are used in order. Like an A->B cause and effect situation. If you get $A9 from the generator and then get $23 after it... if $A9 ever comes up in the generator again... the next number is going to be $23. This makes it pretty much completely impossible to make operable assembly code from a pseudo-random number generator. All that aside... and assuming you COULD make truely random numbers... the number of possibilities is: 2^( 8 * S ) Where S is the size of the file in bytes. A simple 4-byte file will have 4294967296 (2^32) possibilities. A 256K file will have 2^2097152 ( or 2^(256 * 1024 * 8) ). The odds of getting something that doesn't crash.. let alone is a full game... are completely rediculous. You have better odds winning the lotto 5 times in a row. I debated doing something like this with NES graphics. Like draw a bunch of garbage tiles and sort through them until I found some graphics that would look like I want. But there's just way too many possibilities. (edited by Disch on 11-30-04 05:02 PM) |
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Dwedit Shyguy Level: 17  Posts: 14/92 EXP: 20794 For next: 3949 Since: 04-26-04 Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 1 day |
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| If you're that interested, go download a copy of ROM CORRUPTOR. | |||
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MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67 Posts: 1081/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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| Lol you actually reminded me of something else I was thinking about. What if doctors attempted to figure out the way living humans worked in much the same way a rom corruptor cuts up a rom. *slices off an arm* "Well what does this do?" *Stabs out a spleen* "Well the patient crashed, bring in a fresh patient." | |||
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Alastor the Stylish Hey! I made a cool game! It's called "I poisoned half the food, so if you eat you might die!" Have a taco.  Level: 114  Posts: 2823/7620 EXP: 16258468 For next: 51099 Since: 03-15-04 From: Oregon, US Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Then medical science would get pretty much nowhere, and there'd be a lot more religious people because of it. Seriously, that's not much of a question. | |||
bbitmaster Koopa Level: 18  Posts: 32/103 EXP: 25264 For next: 4633 Since: 03-28-04 From: Knoxville, tTN Since last post: 12 days Last activity: 7 days |
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| Actually, I had an even weirder idea about how a sort of rom hack evolution could occur. I know this could never happen in the real world, but assume you have an infinite number of people to play a game who each have an infinite number of faulty copying devices which they will use to pass the game on to several friends. Each person passes the game on to his friend by making a copy, but the copying device isn't perfect and currupts 3 random bytes each time. To combat this, each person makes 5 copies of the game and the person that recieves them plays through each copy and takes the two games that work the best, and makes 5 more faulty copies of each, and passes it on to more friends. Because they are constantly picking the best ones, it should weed out all of the ones that crash, or don't work. After this goes on millions and millions of times, would we end up with a whole bunch of variations of this game? After billions, or even trillions of generations what would we end up with? There aren't a million bytes in most nes games to currupt. Would the game start getting better? Or would it gradually get worse and worse until we end up with an extremely glitched up game? Will we ever know? gee, I do have the strangest ideas. |
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Chickenlump Level: 41  Posts: 423/722 EXP: 474192 For next: 5953 Since: 03-15-04 From: Columbia City Indiana Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 4 min. |
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Originally posted by MathOnNapkins Heh...in the OLD days, before hospitals and modern medical science, that's pretty much how it went. Trial and error, and documentation along the way. "I don't need no stinkin' spleen!" |
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BMF98567 BLACK HAS BUILT A SILLY DICE-MAZE! GO! Current list of BURNING FURY >8( recipients: - Yiffy Kitten (x2) - Xkeeper Level: 53  Posts: 502/1261 EXP: 1094149 For next: 62970 Since: 03-15-04 From: Blobaria Special Move: Rising Meatloaf Backhand Combo Since last post: 21 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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Somehow, I'm reminded of a quote about a bunch of monkeys with typewriters locked in a room for eternity, destined to one day produce the complete works of Shakespeare...  |
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Kitten Yiffer Purple wand Furry moderator Vivent l'exp����¯�¿�½������©rience de signalisation d'amusement, ou bien ! Level: 135 Posts: 6348/11162 EXP: 28824106 For next: 510899 Since: 03-15-04 From: Sweden Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 4 min. |
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But well, I honestly think we wouldn't see many of thoose monkeys using the typewriter as a... typewriter.  Evovling code would be more easy to make on source code level. And that would be intresting...  |
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Kyoufu Kawa I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way. Level: 70  Posts: 945/2481 EXP: 3008456 For next: 7355 Since: 03-19-04 From: Catgirl Central Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 13 hours |
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Originally posted by MathOnNapkinsThat's enough Mr. Data! *Kawa-oneechan slaps Napkins 'round the head a bit. |
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Smallhacker Green Birdo SMW Hacking Moderator Level: 68  Posts: 978/2273 EXP: 2647223 For next: 81577 Since: 03-15-04 From: Söderhamn, Sweden Since last post: 10 hours Last activity: 9 hours |
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| Generating games randomly... The idea is as interesting as it is unrealistic. *Corrupts my 99.9999% finished 1000 levels SMW hack* Hmm... Nope. Crashed the emulator. Hey... Wait... Uh oh... I forgot to backup the ROM! *Runs around screaming* |
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MathOnNapkins Math n' Hacks Level: 67 Posts: 1085/2189 EXP: 2495887 For next: 96985 Since: 03-18-04 From: Base Tourian Since last post: 1 hour Last activity: 32 min. |
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| Disch: lol. Yeah this is sort of a joke topic in that I realize "ideal" randomness just isn't a possibility, particularly with computers. However, the other method is to "try" every number starting with 0,1,2,3,4,... until you find actual working programs. The sheer inefficiency of the process would have you working until the end of the universe. |
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