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1 user currently in Rom Hacking:  hukka |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - Sad State Solutions (Please read!) |
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BGNG Snifit Level: 22  Posts: 259/276 EXP: 56579 For next: 1771 Since: 06-03-05 Since last post: 8 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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| Make sure you read this whole post before replying to it. If you have an argument to make that conflicts with something I've said, make sure I didn't already clarify that whatever I said isn't always the case. You'll only look like a dunderhead if you repeat something I already posted just because you failed to read all of my words. Additionally, DO NOT be lazy and simply respond to this topic saying "I agree" or "I feel [whatever] would be the best action." This topic stresses cooperation and if people are just going to waste space in their chairs without doing anything they propose, this isn't the topic for them. A few topics, namely "The sad state of the rom hacking community" and "Warning" have brought to light the issue that something, whatever it may be, is wrong in the ROM Hacking community and something, depending on what the problem is, needs to be done about it. There have been several suggestions regarding what could be done, but no course of action was ever finalized. The purpose of this thread is to proactively decide on a few potential solutions and hopefully be able to put a few of them into practice to see if they help. The problems that have been addressed are as follows:
• Newcomers don't care to learn. "I give up. Bye." • Experienced people don't share."My hack, my info." • Experienced people tend to work alone. "My hack, not yours." • Editors make it look easy. "MetEdit? Why not MajorasMaskEdit?" • Resource gatherers are scarce. "Here's how it works." • Problem: What Is ROM Hacking? One thing that seems to be lurking about is difference in perception as to the definition of "ROM Hacking." Some people consider use of editors to be hacking, while others do not. This is a discrepency and tends to cause confusion when common terms are used with varying understandings of what those terms mean. When it comes to identifying faults in the community, these terms are thrown about without necessarily having a common perception and one man's apple is argued against another man's orange. This is all but productive to help identify the problems at hand. • Solution: Everything Is This community openly welcomes people from all kinds of backgrounds. Whether you change ASM coding in a game, modify graphics, crack algorithms or redisign levels, Acmlm's ROM Hacking community will accept what you do. For this reason, all of these activities should be considered "ROM Hacking," at least in the context of this community. Use "ROM Hacking" as an umbrella term and not to explicity identify one aspect of the whole. A few terms could become commonplace in order to promote understanding. I propose the following:
• ROM Decomposition - Analyzing a game on a binary level; finding formats and algorithms. • Reprogramming (or ASM Coding) - Changing the actual programming of a game.
• Sound Editing - Changing samples or audio filters in a game. • Problem: What Constitutes A Hack? Again, this is a matter of varying perceptions. To one person, cracking a compression algorithm in a game counts as a hack. To another, a hack is the end result of a modified game; usually supplied as an IPS patch. When one person says "Hack," he thinks of the algorithm he cracked, but his friend thinks of the new Super Mario Bros. modification he finished. Two vastly different worlds, and vastly ambiguous in conversation. More often than not, "Hack" usually refers to completed game modifications in this community. This consequently means that most of the people doing hacks are making new games out of old games. In turn, fewer people are looking into new games to find out what makes them tick. This "resource gatherer" archetype is a must for progress to be made, but if all the attention goes to the game remixers, then why bother? • Soultion: To Him His Cause Both ROM hacking and game hacking, as it were, have their purposes. Hacking a game to make a new game provides novelty of an old favorite. Hacking the programming of a game and allowing for new games to be made from it... well, that helps the first cause. Again, I propose terms to promote understanding:
• Game Hacking - Changing a ROM to produce a new game I know I'm gonna sound self-serving with this illustration, but my honest intention is to use it to promote understanding and not try to exalt myself. This is the best example I can think of at the moment. In my work with F-Zero X, I cracked the MIO0 compression algorithm that the game used. After documenting and releasing my findings on the algorithm, HyperHacker and VL-Tone used the information I found to hack Super Mario 64, which used the same algorithm for its resource files. In this example, one project came about due to findings in another. This is different from the concept of redesigning a game and is perhaps more influential. If the community increases its support for resource gatherers, more people will be inspired to take that path and everyone will benefit. • Problem: What's Up With All The n00bs? It's no question that there are several newcomers in this community who simply don't know how to do anything in regards to ROM Hacking. They may have some minor experience with editors, but ask simple questions about rudimentary concepts that they don't even need to be asking in the first place. Many newcomers suffer from a short-term interest that leaves their productivity at a minimum. While this is primarily typical of a more naïve, younger demographic, it is also present in some older members. The idea here is that the newcomer wishes to achieve a certain goal without knowing what they're getting into initially. Since ROM Hacking is complicated at best, these newcomers apparently don't realize what the art (yes: I'm calling ROM Hacking an art) is all about and become discouraged when they realize they may not be able to do what they wanted to do. Their response to this is to ask questions. Surely, if there's an easy way to do something, someone in the existing community would know what it is. This is problematic, because with such questions comes the mindset that there MUST be an easy way to do it. Typically speaking, a person who wants the easy way to do things probably isn't willing to do anything the hard way. This results in a barage of careless questions and "clinging." Since these people (only the ones I speak of) are not willing to take matters into their own hands and research their material, they resort to something just short of lazy stupidity and ask questions they would easily be able to get answers to using a dictionary. Seeing other newcomers do this only serves to encourage such actions. As not to condemn ALL newcomers, I will clarify that there is a decent number of newcomers who are willing to do things themselves and simply need to know which direction to point in order to get started. I have observed multiple times in this community that such newcomers often find what they're looking for and occasionally go on to becomming at least marginally successful in what they sought after. Since the "responsible newcomer" is willing to serve himself, he takes little heat from the rest of the community. This person is not the problem. • Solution: Give Them A Home For the newcomer with a short-term interest in ROM Hacking, there could be some repository or sandbox of information that will let them know what their would-be projects would entail. Some place where a newcomer would go first to see what it's all about. Sure, there will always be the defiant n00b who will post an editor request anyway, but giving them some knowledge ahead of time will help to prevent such things from occurring. Basically: If a person can become discouraged without posting anything, then they won't post a stupid question, right? I suggest a forum. Acmlm's Board has a cool feature called the "Newbie Forum," which exists solely for those who are new to online forums and shows proper posting etiquette and the such. I wouldn't say that a "Newbie ROM Hacking" forum would be such a bad idea if it will help to minimize wasted posts by users who ask for editors or want people to do things for them. Forum posting is one aspect of this community. There's also an underlying, conventional "ROM Hacking Etiquette" that should be brought to light as well. Newcomers could post their issues in the "Newbie ROM Hacking" forum and when--or if--they feel ready to move onwards and upwards, they would start posting here in the existing ROM Hacking forum. • Problem: Gold-Hogging Gurus There are some significantly experienced people in this community. When these people do everything on their own and refrain from releasing information on what they're doing, they come across as a sort of "guru" that is able to do anything they please in the game that they're examining and editing. From the perspective of the newcomer, these people are seen as particularly well-to-do hackers and serve as a de-facto role model that is the ultimate goal to aspire to. This leaves the newcomers with the idea that they need to be able to do everything themselves. Having no information released by the "gurus" showing how they do what they do leaves the newcomers in the dark as to how to go about doing things. In the end, the newcomers are left with little choice but to have big goals and no knowledge of how to achieve them. • Solution: Let Them Eat Cake The "gold-hogging gurus" are treated somewhat unfairly. Just because someone knows how to do stuff and doesn't release information doesn't mean that they're giving people false hopes or being selfish. If they choose to work alone, let them. Their business is their business. There's no need to call on them to become active in correcting the n00bish posts of other people. So instead, I propose that there should be some alternative means of expressing information that anyone could contribute to; something to be referenced by the newcomers that won't be invasive to the experienced hackers who don't wish to become babysitters. The idea is already out there, but I suggest a Wiki. However, I do NOT propose a Wiki containing any game-specific information. There's a lot to know about game structure, hacking techniques and the internal workings of videogame systems. That is the kind of information that would be helpful to someone who wants to do so himself. Seeing a big list of RAM addresses for useless crap in some game they've never heard of isn't particularly helpful. There are some astounding documents out there like the Pan Docs or GBATek. That's the kind of stuff that could be included in such a "ROM Hacking Wiki." Additional information would be how to do things like text editing, ROM corruption, etc. Keep it all objective and minimally reliant on any particular game. With a concept-oriented Wiki and not a game-oriented Wiki, ROM Hacking could potentially get an enormous jump-start and productivity would increase sharply. • Problem: Give Me Editor Or Give Me Death The end product of many hacking movements involves the creation of a game modification software: usually in the form of a level editor. These tools tend to have the capabilities to modify nearly all of the aspects of a level in a game and are appealing tools to hobbyists and experimentors. Over time, there can be a comprehensive tool or a series of tools that are capable of altering nearly every aspect of a game. This usually results in non-dedicated people working with games and relying wholly on the use of editors to achieve their goals. This is analagous to the driver of a car. While it's one thing to turn the steering wheel and press the accellerator, it's a different matter entirely to change the spark plugs and verify the firing sequence. In the same way, people who use editors--typically speaking--aren't aware of what goes on in the guts of their tools and wouldn't be able to work without them. For this reason, use of editors tends to be discredited as a form of ROM Hacking. The aftermath of this situation is a foreign population consulting the resources of their hobbies and requesting more--or inquring about more--tools so they can get done what they want to get done. If you want to upgrade your car but don't know how, you go to someone who knows how to upgrade a car. Simple logic, but in doing so, you'll end up as one person with one interest among many people with another. I feel it would be approperiate to say that a sub-culture of ROM Hacking is the end user of editing tools. When these people consult the ROM Hacking community for more tools, the only expertise they have is to ask about more editors. Since this community puts emphasis on the actual hacking of games and not on simply using tools developed by hackers, editor requests and the like are frowned upon. • Solution: Give Him References For the sub-culture of editor end users, there needs to be a distinction between casual game modifier and hardcore technical specialist. For this community at this time, it needs to be made known that no one is willing to take a request for an editor in the first place. This place is full of hobbyists themselves, who hack the games they are intersted in. Acmlm's Board ROM Hacking community is not a service desk for people to come to for the development of new software. So should we just bash on these casual game modifiers and ask them to go away? I suggest that a directory be compiled regarding any number of references to existing editors and projects. It could be as simple as a single, regularly-updated web page with information on zillions of editors for zillions of games. Instead of becomming angered at someone for requesting an editor, we could redirect them to where they could find any editor that exists. And natrually, if it doesn't exist, just ask them not to request it. I am willing to help with the research of gathering information on editors if need be. Preferably, there would be some server to host all the editors as a sort of "editor vault" so when hotlinks go bad, the data can still be downloaded. Likewise, the same could be done for various tools. Of course, Zophar's Domain is already doing this. The simplest action would be to grab the attention of a casual editor user and say "HEY! If you're here for an editor, click here!" and link to Zophar's site. Perhaps a pretty button on the top of the forum index page? • The Über Solution The moment you've all been waiting for. This solution would be by far the most effective to both minimize invalid behavior in the forums as well as substantially reinvigorate the ROM Hacking community here on Acmlm's Board. Every person from every background and every skill level would be given an equal opportunity to make a difference and learn in the process. The only snag here is that it would require an unprecedented level of cooperation by all members. The ovarall concept here is an "All-Acmlm Hack" that would involve anyone who wishes to participate to do whatever they can to help out with the hack. This would require a project manager as well as a detailed inventory of the capabilities of each member involved. Experienced hackers would work alongside newcomers; tutoring them in the art of what they do and helping them to become proficient in the same. ASM programmers would work with code crackers while graphics artists and level designers created new content. It may take a few days; it may take a few months. Each hack would be an original experience in itself and prove to be predominantly useful to the entire community. Each member would keep a log of what he or she has done and all logs will be contributed to the project manager for future reference of anyone who visits the forum. Everything that happens during the hacking production will be documented and can be used as an example to future projects. When one hack is completed, another could be started. Massive efforts could be put forth to make new games, or there could be a five-day limit to see just how much of a hack could be made in that amount of time. There would be polls and suggestion threads to determine which game to hack and what to do to it. Pseudo-elections would take place to determine which people (not just one person) should head the project and who will be in which team. Teams could compose of ASM programmers and code crackers, one could be graphics, one could be audio and the last could be misc. content like levels. The teams would be separated by area of expertise (or prospective area of expertise). Both veterans and newcomers would be grouped together all under one goal and would provide for each other for learning and teamwork opportunities. In the end, this community would do nothing short of prosper. Again, this is just a general suggestion thread. I am willing to help out in doing everything that I mentioned in order to improve the situation here in the Acmlm's Board ROM Hacking community. And if you only have something to say like "You're right" or "I disagree," keep it to yourself. If you have an idea that you feel is better, only mention it if you're willing to help it become a reality. |
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 536/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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| Hmmm, interesting, a big hack. How do you propose we would set up this ueber-solution? Perhaps we can start signing up users now? (edited by beneficii on 10-05-05 02:31 AM) |
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BGNG Snifit Level: 22 Posts: 260/276 EXP: 56579 For next: 1771 Since: 06-03-05 Since last post: 8 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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| An "Über Hack" would need a number of teams. Each team would specialize in a different aspect of the hack. After all, a sprite artist won't be reprogramming the game very well. A group of "leaders" will need to be assigned to be the dedicated project managers and keep things moving. The managers will handle any joins/parts from the project and assign people to teams. If enough people are willing to partake in such a project, one could begin shortly. |
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 537/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by BGNG But we would be working on making games, right? So the different teams wouldn't be that separate: they would still have to coordinate with each other. Here's some necessary cross communication: Of these groups: Coders/ASM finders/Resource gatherers/Editor makers (?) Graphics people Sound people Level/World map makers Coders -> Graphics: Limitations, specifications for graphics Coders -> Sound: Limitations, specifications Coders -> Level makers: Limitations, data on making levels, possibly editors Graphics -> Coders: Requesting coders to find things about how to edit graphics Graphics -> Sound: Making sure the sound matches the graphics Graphics -> Level makers: Letting them know the graphics so they could put it together Sound -> Coders: Requesting the format of sounds Sound -> Graphics: Asking graphics to coordinate Sound -> Level makers: Asking them to fit the sounds Level makers -> Coders: Requesting on whether they would be able to do certain things with the maps and perhaps tools to do it Level makers -> Graphics: Asking them to create graphics for certain design aspects of stages Level makers -> Sound: Having them create sounds to match their levels You see the number of permutations? These groups do need to coordinate. We should take this into account when setting things up. (edited by beneficii on 10-05-05 02:31 AM) |
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BGNG Snifit Level: 22 Posts: 261/276 EXP: 56579 For next: 1771 Since: 06-03-05 Since last post: 8 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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| Hence my mentioning that it would "require an unprecedented level of cooperation." It might be better to discuss the idea of an "All-Acmlm Hack" in a different thread. This thread is primarily for improving the condition of this ROM Hacking community. |
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Heran_Bago Rat Level: 15  Posts: 87/91 EXP: 13080 For next: 3304 Since: 03-20-05 From: Newtrogic High Zone Since last post: 8 days Last activity: 1 day |
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| I would like to point out that not all people who can ROM hack and horde information are treated nicely. For example, Sonic Advance 3: Extreem Mansecks. Re-dubbing a character's voice in a GBA game is incredibly simple when you get used to it. I considered documenting how, but I suprisingly wasn't treated liek a guru. If people aren't even going to recognize the technical aspects of a hack, then they don't deserve to know about it. If all they can see is stupid humor, then by all means, that's what they are entitled to recognize. edit: and you can bet I'd be willing to contribute to a community-wide hack. (edited by Heran_Bago on 10-05-05 02:20 AM) |
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dan Snap Dragon Level: 43  Posts: 752/782 EXP: 534516 For next: 30530 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 20 hours Last activity: 14 hours |
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| Unfortunately, getting people to work together in this community is virtually impossible. (Note, the use of the word "virtually" as there are a few small group projects going on) These sound like some good ideas, but I think they have been trotted about here before, and nothing ever came of them.  |
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Stifu Level: 28  Posts: 223/304 EXP: 129458 For next: 1880 Since: 03-16-04 From: Your mom's bed Since last post: 18 hours Last activity: 11 hours |
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| Despite the warning, I didn't read everything at all, yet I'm replying... I'm lazy, sue me. I don't think this über solution is realistic. The bigger a team is, the harder it is to coordinate it... Plus, if there are "weak links" in the team, that'll slow down everything... And it'd just be a huge mess, in my opinion (both the teams and the hacks)... So yeah, that doesn't prevent members from sharing things they've discovered and stuff... But that's it. Anyway, I don't think there's anything wrong with the state of the ROM hacking community nowadays... At least, no more wrong than it's ever been. |
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BGNG Snifit Level: 22 Posts: 262/276 EXP: 56579 For next: 1771 Since: 06-03-05 Since last post: 8 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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| Delete your reply, Stifu. It conflicts with the purpose of this thread. | |||
DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa  Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45  Posts: 845/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| I like the Uber solution because if it doesn't work, then it can stop all the arguments that are often seen in this forum between the elite and the new comers. If it does work, then it would go to show that good hacks are better made in teams. At any rate, this Uber solution would ultimately prove a point that no one can argue against. | |||
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BGNG Snifit Level: 22 Posts: 263/276 EXP: 56579 For next: 1771 Since: 06-03-05 Since last post: 8 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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| ...there's an idea I hadn't considered. Okay. Then I propose we attempt the All-Ac Hack just for the heck of it to remove any reason for bickering. Then, if things still suck, we'll know that it's our fault and stop pointing the blame where it doesn't belong. EDIT: It's a shame I didn't recognize this before. The problems that I mentioned up at the top of my original post... Look at the first four. The first two look down at the newcomers and the second two look up at the veterans. We're dealing with a separation. The "Über Hack" would provide an opportunity to close that separation. If no one is willing to partake in it, then they're not willing to do anything about it and keep complaining where they have no position to complain. (edited by BGNG on 10-05-05 09:19 AM) (edited by BGNG on 10-05-05 09:23 AM) |
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AP Panser Level: 22  Posts: 293/333 EXP: 56817 For next: 1533 Since: 08-07-05 Since last post: 6 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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| Posting these Sad State solutions may not completely solve the sad state of the whole Acmlm's ROM hacking community. The SMW and Pokemon hackers have their own forums, and they may need to have a link to this (or a copy of this thread) at their forums in order for the solution to be more complete. Bringing this up in only the ROM hacking forum doesn't seem enough. | |||
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BGNG Snifit Level: 22 Posts: 264/276 EXP: 56579 For next: 1771 Since: 06-03-05 Since last post: 8 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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| Is there any way to include this thread in the other forums? Whoever has the ability to do so, if possible, please do. Otherwise, it may be best just to post a closed, sticky topic with a link to this one in each of those forums. That will disable any replies in the linking topics and force all applicable conversation into this one. | |||
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AP Panser Level: 22 Posts: 295/333 EXP: 56817 For next: 1533 Since: 08-07-05 Since last post: 6 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by BGNG You could make copies of this thread and have them say that it should be closed and stickied, and have those copies each have a link to this discussion. I'm thinking about meeting threads for group hacks in the ROM hacking forum (or SMW Hacking or Pokemon hacking, depends on the game you hack). |
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ev0 Goomba Level: 9  Posts: 23/27 EXP: 2513 For next: 649 Since: 12-16-04 Since last post: 10 days Last activity: 7 days |
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| i would like to say a word on this... i consider myself an "advanced" gb-z80 programmer (not a guru yet  ) but in 6502 programming i'm really n00b.what i want to say with this is that everyone of us has been newbie, but with experience and hours spent founding solutions over hacking projects we have grown. the problem are not the gurus because there are many of them that offers help to anyone that need and that is intentioned to learn something. many newbies look at the works of the gurus and say 'i would like to do it' but don't like to spend hours and several headbutts on the keyboard to learn what is needed. Howewer online there are all the info that anyone need to hack everithing from NES to XBOX., all a newbie need is learn to search and the documents they need are all over the net. |
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rg_ Goomba Level: 8  Posts: 19/26 EXP: 1964 For next: 223 Since: 03-27-05 Since last post: 21 hours Last activity: 12 hours |
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| I'm of the opinion that your solution the problem you stated is flawed at best and probably completely misguided. Even if I acknowledged the problem (which I don't) you're going at it in a completely wrong way. The first two of the five problems you mentioned (that's 40%) are spent on issues I consider irrelevant. I think you're hugely overestimating the issue of non-standardized terminology. First, ROM hacking is not an exact science and it's not like philosophy where you need to be extremely careful with terminology. When it comes to ROM hacking, context generally makes it obvious what the poster is talking about. Second, you generally don't get to make up terms for things you didn't invent. Furthermore forcing a new terminology on people who are used to call things differently will be a fKitten Yiffer, I guarantee that. I can assure you that I'm not going to change my habits and learn new vocabulary because a random internet poster wants that. And I bet nearly everyone is with me here, whether they admit it or not. I have no intention to comment on the next three problems because I'm not interested in any of them so let me come right to your "solution". Mammoth projects are generally hard to pull off because the complexity increases exponentially with the number of team members. It's hard enough to get projects like that done in the real software development world, on an internet board where basically everyone is 15 - 25 years old (and unpaid !) it's basically impossible. I have no hope for this project, although I wish it the best in case it ever starts. So what is the solution then? I think it's three-fold: - There needs to be a decent ROM hacking site, a centralized website for ROM hacking. a repository for hacks, docs, tools and data collections. No such site exists right now. There was a small discussion in #rom-hacking yesterday and some really good ideas were mentioned. If you want a collosal project maybe bring everyone together to write the PHP code. - Instead of giganto projects that never finish, the focus should be on small projects. Now I'm a tool developer, I've never actually made a ROM hack (although I'm planning one for the distant future) so my focus is on ROM hacking tools. For example few weeks/months ago someone complained in a thread about the limitations of the IPS format for SNES ROM patching and he suggested that someone makes a new format. There could have been a thread where people discussed this neo-IPS format and once the best ideas were agreed upon someone could have implemented it. That should take 1 - 2 weeks max and will definitely finish. And then we'd have a cool new tool for patching larger files. There was no such thread and nothing happened though. IPS is still difficult if not unsuitable for complex SNES patching. For actual ROM hacking I imagine that there could be some kind of IPS patch library. Want Mario to jump twice as high in your hack apply this IPS patch, want Bowser to shoot three flames instead of one apply another patch and so on. I'm thinking of an IPS standard library like the C standard library so that not everybody needs to reinvent the wheel every time. - Open source is the key. There are so many ROM hacking tools that are not open source and it really pains me. Open source tools benefit new programmers so much in my opinion, it's unbelievable. What are people afraid of? Don't want your code to be "stolen" ? I can guarantee everyone that his ROM editor code is not as awesome as he thinks and generally not steal-worthy. And even if it's stolen, so what? Or maybe some of you guys are afraid of peer review? Well, I've done open-source for 7 - 8 years now and I've never had anyone comment on my code (in neither a negative or positive fashion). It's most likely that nobody will ever be mean to you because he didn't like your code. Just have the guts and release it for the benefit of the ROM hacking community. |
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Stifu Level: 28 Posts: 224/304 EXP: 129458 For next: 1880 Since: 03-16-04 From: Your mom's bed Since last post: 18 hours Last activity: 11 hours |
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| rg_ (weird nickname btw)... I agree completely. Nice post. This "project" is bound to fail... I don't understand why this thread has been made a sticky. |
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BGNG Snifit Level: 22 Posts: 265/276 EXP: 56579 For next: 1771 Since: 06-03-05 Since last post: 8 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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Stifu, your derogatory remarks are hindersome to the purpose of this discussion. You show no intentions of being respectful and I ask that you cease to reply to this thread.Originally posted by rg_My response to that acknowlegement, as I had stated in my first post, was to suggest a Wiki that aims more towards the technical aspect of ROM Hacking and not so much on supplying information about specific games. Directories of sample hacks, documentations and tools would be easilly implemented into such an archetecture. Originally posted by rg_Under a centralized, community-based management, both small and large projects alike will have the ability to keep moving. Initially, like you have said, a small project would be better because results will be fast and encouraging. Originally posted by rg_In my experience, people who download pre-completed source projects tend to use them as a magic wand in their own works. Find a chunk of code that works? Incorporate it into your own projects and take credit for it. While it may shed some insight on how some programming techniques may be carried out, source code rarely helps the reader to become more proficient in their knowledge of what the program does. Again, in a community-wide project, these tools could be created by the experienced programmers and shown to the novices every step of the way. In doing so, it's possible that perhaps some group or groups of people would wish to join together to create tools in the future. Originally posted by rg_This remark, backed with no observable evidence, only serves to be a degradation and insult to a concept that you have little or no faith in. You're directly attacking another member by discrediting his recomendation and stating his resolutions to be invalid. This is disrespectful and inapproperiate; your comment is not appreciated. Take a short visit to the Newbie Forum. They have useful tips there for making intelligible posts that you may find are worth your while. Originally posted by rg_People are able to think for themselves. They are not subjected to your judgement. I have posted my observations that there is a fair amount of confusion as a result of ambiguity in the use of terminology in this community. That is an issue that I addressed, and I proposed a solution for that issue. I am not in any way commanding that people follow my ideals just because my solution entails it. The latter half of that comment, your reluctance to "change your habits," is characteristic behavior of one who is unwilling to compromise certain aspects of lifestyle for the well-being of the greater community. Such behavior is the kind that is making the problem worse; not helping to alleviate it. You contradict yourself by commanding that someone else doesn't command others. That's hypocritical and majoratively ignorant. Others do not necessarily hold you in as high a regard as you might consider for yourself, so take into account that such actions may not be particularly effective. Refrain from asserting make-believe authority; doing so will promote cooperation between members. |
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dan Snap Dragon Level: 43 Posts: 756/782 EXP: 534516 For next: 30530 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 20 hours Last activity: 14 hours |
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Originally posted by BGNGOriginally posted by rg_In my experience, people who download pre-completed source projects tend to use them as a magic wand in their own works. Find a chunk of code that works? Incorporate it into your own projects and take credit for it. While it may shed some insight on how some programming techniques may be carried out, source code rarely helps the reader to become more proficient in their knowledge of what the program does. How often has it happened that people steal others code/hacks/programs? It is extremely rare. Making things closed source makes very little sense to me in the context of this community. Information should be shared, not hoarded away under lock and key. Hell, I open source pretty much every utility/editor/program I write, because I really don't mind anymore who sees it. If it helps someone by my code being open-sourced, then I am happy. I couldn't care less about crediting me for any source I write either. Maybe I am the exception. |
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rg_ Goomba Level: 8 Posts: 20/26 EXP: 1964 For next: 223 Since: 03-27-05 Since last post: 21 hours Last activity: 12 hours |
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Originally posted by BGNG I actually didn't comment on this because I didn't want to bring more negativity in my post but if you me call on it I'll give my two cents. I consider Wikis to be inappropriate for this purpose. Now I'm a huge Wiki fan but (I think) originally Wikis were made to host some kind of e-encylopedias. Unfortunately people fail to recognize that and use them inappropriately for all kinds of purposes these days, I suspect because they're too lazy to put up a real website (I nearly fell into that trap myself once). After nothing happens for six months they wonder why their Wiki is a fKitten Yiffer. A ROM hacking community site is incredibly more complex than any Wiki out there, Wiki software won't cut it. In my experience, people who download pre-completed source projects tend to use them as a magic wand in their own works. Find a chunk of code that works? Incorporate it into your own projects and take credit for it.I have no problem with that. It is in fact exactly why I open-source all my stuff. I want to be able to help people who see and copy my code to their own projects. My Faxanadu level editor I'm working on is written in a way that makes it very easy to replace the Faxanadu stuff with data from other games because I thought one day someone might find it useful. This remark, backed with no observable evidence, only serves to be a degradation and insult to a concept that you have little or no faith in. You're directly attacking another member by discrediting his recomendation and stating his resolutions to be invalid. This is disrespectful and inapproperiate; your comment is not appreciated. "Discrediting his recommendation" and "statis his resolutions to be invalid"? I certainly hope so, I don't think your ideas are good. What did you want? Everybody to say yes and amen to your suggestions? I never attacked you personally, in fact I tried to help you by pointing out what I consider the problems in your "solution". I'm sorry that you can't take constructive criticism. Of course my remarks aren't backed by observable evidence, it's called an opinion. The latter half of that comment, your reluctance to "change your habits," is characteristic behavior of one who is unwilling to compromise certain aspects of lifestyle for the well-being of the greater community. Such behavior is the kind that is making the problem worse; not helping to alleviate it.Did you actually copy that from Mao's little red book? Sounds a bit too much like communism (and not in the cuddly, hippie college kid way but the Stalin stuff ) for my tastes. (See, that was really an attack on you on a personal level but in such a light-hearted and humorous way that I'm sure we can still be friends afterwards) You contradict yourself by commanding that someone else doesn't command others. That's hypocritical and majoratively ignorant. Others do not necessarily hold you in as high a regard as you might consider for yourself, so take into account that such actions may not be particularly effective. Refrain from asserting make-believe authority; doing so will promote cooperation between members.You're mistakenly of the opinion that I care whether people agree with me or not. I only post here for my general amusement and to offer my opinions (which I actually think to be quite useful). I've made no emotional investments into my posts in this thread (or in fact my entire activity in the ROM hacking scene) and if I'm all wrong and your ideas go through and you refuel the ROM hacking community with an awesome Wiki I won't hold an e-grudge against you or something because you "won" an e-argument against me once. (edited by rg_ on 10-05-05 01:18 PM) |
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