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1 user currently in Rom Hacking:  hukka |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - The sad state of the rom hacking community |
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bbitmaster Koopa Level: 18  Posts: 100/103 EXP: 25264 For next: 4633 Since: 03-28-04 From: Knoxville, tTN Since last post: 12 days Last activity: 7 days |
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| (throughout this post I'll have some text point to links that help prove my point, to get the most out of this post, go visit them) you know what I've seen as really being a big problem with the rom hacking scene in general. well, see... say you go to a game programming site like allegro.cc, 2DNow, or even gamedev.net You'll see people really doing cool stuff, they're able to make games. I was in those communities a while back, and I saw almost everyone in there, even the new people that come in and post. Now, I know, you may be thinking "but those game programming guys are experts" But the truth is, they are simply people like you and me. Some of them are even very young to be coding games. I remember one guy had a pretty cool game coded in allegro, and said he was only 14 years old. I myself did some amazing stuff when I was 14 and 15. The fact is, they're people just like you and me, only they went through some sort of programming tutorial, and are really trying to code a cool game. Then, I come back to the rom hacking community, and I see a bunch of kids that don't know anything about programming, and don't care to learn, all posting silly questions. Maybe that isn't true for a lot of people reading this, but for most rom hackers in general, There's like a big gap in knowledge. Rom hacking is a really difficult thing to do well. I would say to mess with a game's coding, you probably have to be smarter than an average game programmer. You have to work on the lowest level of all computer languages - machine language. These kids all have big dreams, they'll see some cool hack like MA, and think "oooh, I wanna do that" so they go looking for an editor for the game they want to hack. If they can't find one, they'll sometimes go as far as to violate the forum rules and ask for an editor here. After all, with no practical experience doing things, they depend on a editor to do all the work for them. But when it comes to the real stuff, they aren't willing to learn anything, not even a simple programming language. They think "oooh I want to do asm" and they have trouble understanding asm. Why do they have trouble with asm? because they have no prior experience in programming. And what happens when their editor fails? or they realize they can't do something they wanted to do? They cry about it, get discouraged, and go straight back to wherever they came from. Or even worse, they'll find someone who does know a little bit of programming and cling to him. (note - the poster deleted his original post here, but my point still stands) The really sad thing is, with the hacking utilities out these days, a little bit of programming and asm knowledge will get you farther than it ever would have in the past. For example, FCEUXD is such a powerful tool, it'll let you find and do almost anything within minutes. provided that you have a bit of programming, and 6502 experience. I don't know about anyone else, but I see something seriously wrong with this picture. It's as if most people in this place have simply stopped caring to learn anything that they need to learn to do anything. Now again, I want to stress that this does not apply to everyone. There are probably a lot of people reading this that are serious about wanting to learn to do some amazing hacks, and I don't want to discourage those that are serious. It's just very difficult to tell who is serious, because everyone says they are. Once most people see the effort required, they back out of making that amazing hack that they had big dreams for, then they leave, and the process is repeated over again. (edited by bbitmaster on 09-28-05 12:32 PM) |
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jman2050 Red Koopa Level: 19 Posts: 117/123 EXP: 33172 For next: 2605 Since: 03-21-04 Since last post: 10 days Last activity: 103 days |
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| The fact that editors exist is a big reason why this occurs. Allegro.cc and GameDev are great places for programmers to come together and post their projects, but that's exactly what those people are: programmers. Allegro.cc, to use one of your examples, caters to a specific group of individuals that employ the Allegro game library to create an original computer application, games specifically. Same with Gamedev. The reason you don't see dumb n00bs in this area is because there really is nothing dumb n00bs can do within those communities that would elicit any sort of relevent response. For things like rom hacking, anybody can change the game with an editor, and it's a common perception that that's all one really needs. "they'll see some cool hack like MA, and think "oooh, I wanna do that" - That phenomenon doesn't help the case either. Otherwise, it's just normal. After all, it's not like there aren't other sectors of the game development community that suffer from exactly the same thing. |
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midget35 Paragoomba Level: 13 Posts: 60/70 EXP: 8877 For next: 1390 Since: 03-17-05 Since last post: 3 days Last activity: 14 hours |
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| Well, the 'cultural' problem needs to be addressed, that's for sure. The field of rom-hacking seems to to attract the attention of users rather than programmers & people w/ a design background. I agree. But we, the community, have to accept some degree of responsibility for the long stretches of low-quality output, and ignorant 'noob' posting. The tired, bitchy responses to irritating posts say volumes about this community's attitude. They are as counter-productive as the 'is there a DKC editor' posts in the first place. This isn't a call to arms, or a blame game initiative, but we seem obliged to throw all our toys out the pram every time someone fails to read an faq. Let the mods deal w/ it, and let US concentrate on hacking, and understanding WHY this lethargy exists in our culture. |
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Setzer Popo Level: 36  Posts: 499/532 EXP: 290182 For next: 17928 Since: 04-22-04 From: Not Florida. because I'm going to sink it. Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 48 min. |
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Originally posted by midget35 Okay but I don't know what half the words in that post ment. Point is we have personalities, and we use them, thus the whole "you suck noob" will never go away, so embrace it. |
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Coolman Goomba Level: 10  Posts: 31/32 EXP: 3753 For next: 661 Since: 08-29-04 From: Germany FWB Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 21 hours |
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| Well, i don't see any problem if somebody plays a hack and thinks that he want to this too. The problem occurs only if you don't know what the programs you use really do and how they work. As long as you can do everything, that you do with a editor, in a hexeditor, there is no problem of using programms. Anyhow, if there weren't any newbies... romhacking would die out in a little while because the old members would leave and nobody would enter any more... Newbies are necessary but they should be willing to learn something and not just to push a button. |
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theonyxdragoon Blue Octorok Level: 9  Posts: 25/38 EXP: 2446 For next: 716 Since: 07-16-05 From: Somewhere between Mars and Jupiter, on an asteroid Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 6 hours |
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| The concept of ROM hacking and programming are somewhat different. In most ROM hacking, people like to change and manipulate data to suit their needs rather than create software practically from scratch or limited resources. Therefore, I believe that it is safe to say that if the ROMs become obsolete and ignored, no more hacking will take place since it is mostly modification anyways. I myself have given a couple of shots at rom hacking, but it is easy to lose interest quickly since almost always that particular ROM has been modified sometime before and normally lacks originality. | |||
infidelity Red Paratroopa Level: 21  Posts: 135/164 EXP: 42804 For next: 7139 Since: 09-13-04 From: U.S.A. Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 6 hours |
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| Go play Megaman Ultra, bbitmaster. I could've easily said, fuck it, i give up, but i moved on. you, and other people want to call me a clinger, fine, but move on. Your were extremely generous in helping me. and I'm thankful for that. I've learned alot of shit from you, and i'm starting to get into asm hacking for my next project. It's not liked I asked you to make my hack. I had tremendous glitches, which I asked if you could fix, you did 1 of them, which I was very thankful for, you told me exactly what to do for the other one, I did it, and it didn't work, and after I told you that, and asked if you could fix that last thing for me, you acted like solid snake, and scurried away into evasion mode. I'd accept your little comment you made about me, if I "was" or "am" one of those newbies, that hound for shit, try it for a day, and give up. Well, I'm not. Go check out Megaman Ultra, and tell me different. Yes, there are a few program changes, but it's something, yeah there are still glitches in the end of the game, but I'll figure it out. Welcome back, and nuff said. (edited by infidelity on 09-28-05 04:32 PM) (edited by infidelity on 09-28-05 04:33 PM) (edited by infidelity on 09-28-05 04:34 PM) (edited by infidelity on 09-28-05 04:49 PM) |
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midget35 Paragoomba Level: 13 Posts: 61/70 EXP: 8877 For next: 1390 Since: 03-17-05 Since last post: 3 days Last activity: 14 hours |
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| EDIT: I'm retracting comments I made here. EDIT2: Infedelity- you misinterpret me: I made no comment on your last post. Sorry for the confusion! (edited by midget35 on 09-28-05 04:51 PM) (edited by midget35 on 09-28-05 04:58 PM) |
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infidelity Red Paratroopa Level: 21 Posts: 137/164 EXP: 42804 For next: 7139 Since: 09-13-04 From: U.S.A. Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 6 hours |
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| edit - midget35, okey dokey, sorry mate! (edited by infidelity on 09-28-05 05:12 PM) (edited by infidelity on 09-28-05 05:12 PM) |
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Dude Man Koopa Level: 18 Posts: 106/116 EXP: 29288 For next: 609 Since: 05-02-04 From: Wareham Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 7 hours |
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| What always bugs me is that whenever this type of topic is posted it leaves me with the impression that you think people who don't know ASM and such aren't as good as those who do know. Lets say some new hacker comes around and he/she knows asm and such. And makes a big deal out of his next hack with all it's new features and asm shit. You finally get it and exictedly patch it up and play..... 5 minutes later you realize the hack sucks balls. Why? The features look soooooooo cooooooool..... but the levels suck... and the gameplay sucks... and lets say even the graphics suck...... Everything sucks about it except it's asm features. What I'm getting at is that is takes alot of imagination and creativity to make good games. Not a reputation and programming skills. |
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Violent J Melon Bug Level: 41  Posts: 629/749 EXP: 479154 For next: 991 Since: 05-05-04 From: Since last post: 8 hours Last activity: 8 hours |
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| Yea I took up 6502...Gil_ was teaching me. I took noted in a notebook and everything and really understanded it. We were so far, and he almost taught me enough to go out on my own, and all of a sudden he was too busy. I never came back to #rom-hacking because of it. Pisses me off I spent so much time on it.... | |||
Tatrion Red Cheep-cheep Level: 18  Posts: 74/215 EXP: 27181 For next: 2716 Since: 08-20-05 Since last post: 8 hours Last activity: 7 hours |
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 This topic inspires me to learn ASM. I need to get around to reading that tutorial... lazy me  |
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Dish Spiny Level: 38 Posts: 582/596 EXP: 355646 For next: 14801 Since: 03-15-04 From: Disch Since last post: 18 days Last activity: 18 days |
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Originally posted by Dude Man No... it takes imagination and creativity to make good game ideas. Actually making the GAME requires (in addition) a good deal of technical knowledge that the majority of these 'creative' hackers not only lack... but are unwilling to acquire. That's bbit's point. BBit drew these parallels between rom hacking and programming because the two are actually very similar. Even though that's true... a lot of people don't realize that because editors give the impression that they're an all-in-one make-your-own-game miracle tool. When they find out that it's not... they either get in gear and learn what needs to be learned (what they should do) -- or they sit around, whine and complain and make endless requests for help (far more common) -- or they even give up, make some dramatic farewell speech, then disappear. Like programming... ROM hacking takes a knowledge of basic programming concepts. Some of you may not agree with this... but it's true... and this is the problem that hits newcomers the hardest. When an editor glitches... or they break some 'rule' they weren't supposed to... or something happens and their hack is bugged/glitched/messed up... 99% of these guys are CLUELESS as to what went wrong. A programmer working on debugging his game will be able to see the glitch and form an educated guess as to what the problem is before even looking at any code. Likewise a ROM hacker should be able to see the problem in their hack (assuming it's not something generic like a lockup or crash) and make a reasonable guess as to what the problem is. And you're probably not suprised to hear this... but all the good ROM hackers CAN make that educated guess. And 90% of the time they're right. A big part of that comes with experience, yes... but it comes down to knowing what you're doing. People that "hide behind" editors don't know what they're doing... so when trouble strikes they're helpless and they come crying for the instant fix. That's the attitude I think bbit (and myself) have a problem with. Also like programming, a project will take a lot of time, dedication, and work. Sometimes it can get downright tedious. There's all these people announcing "hey I'm going to make the super most badass hack of XXXX game ever" and then they either disappear off the face of the Earth... or they announce their hack is cancelled a few days/weeks later. So many things about ROM hacking are just like programming... I mean it's astounding. In fact.. I would even argue that ROM hacking is harder in a way than programming. Sure it's easier because you have a game base to work off of.... but it's harder in that you're restricted to that game base... and you have to work within the boundaries, not only of the system, but of the game. Trying to expand on the game's engine (aka "asm hacking") is harder than expanding on your own engine... since you already know how your engine works... whereas with ROM hacking you have to examine, study, and understand someone else's code... which is FAR more difficult. Which brings me to another point: comprimise. Too many ROM hackers do it. They ALL (no exceptions here... EVERY SINGLE ROM HACKER) get to the point where they want to do something that can't easily be done. Whether it be some kind of level/graphics change... or some major asm change. The difference between the good hackers and the bad ones is the good ones actually learn how to do what they want to do... and the bad ones comprimise. They say "oh well I guess I can't do that"... then their super-cool-delux-best-hack-ever turns into some lame hack any monkey with Lunar Magic could make. "But it's so hard to learn all that." "Do you expect me to learn asm just for this hack?" "That sounds like a lot of work!" "I don't understand anything you just said... I guess I can't do this idea" --- some of the various ways of saying "I'm a lame wanna-be hacker who doesn't have the drive to actually do what I want to get done". That's what my beef (and, from what I gather, bbit's beef) is. YES it will be hard. YES it will take a lot of time. YES you will have many problems along the way YES you will scrap several projects YES you will end up redoing a lot of the same things over and over YES it will get tedious Welcome to programming/Rom hacking. That's how it is. As for unwillingness to help... that's not true at all. It's more like unwillingness to do all their work for them. If someone asks a question I can answer, I will certainly try to answer... and I'm not alone... many people on these boards are equally as willing to help. Though, yes, I do have a bad attitude towards the "bad hackers". When people post things like "GAH THIS IS TOO HARD I GIVE UP" I'm certainly not going to feel sorry for them.. and I'm probably not going to help them. There will always be problems/hurdles to overcome... and if their first problem fills them with that much dispair, then I don't see much hope for them in the future... so I'm not going to waste my time with them. |
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Acillatem98 Red Koopa Level: 17 Posts: 96/135 EXP: 24570 For next: 173 Since: 03-02-05 From: Akron, Ohio Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 6 hours |
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| I'd take up asm or something but school blows and I've got so much work to do, and I don't want to do so much at once. When there's a calm like durin my summer, I'll be a lot more likely to take it up. Homework and learning new complicated things, its not good to start learning something I don't really NEED to know so soon. If I'd take it up during the school year, I'd end up forgetting about all of the school things I need to know, and maybe end up failing. During one of my breaks I'll try and learn it, I've seen what this knowledge is capable of producing so it will be worth it. | |||
Gavin Fuzzy Rhinoceruses don't play games. They fucking charge your ass. Level: 43  Posts: 742/799 EXP: 551711 For next: 13335 Since: 03-15-04 From: IL, USA Since last post: 13 hours Last activity: 13 hours |
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Originally posted by Violent J Gil_ usually has trouble making sure he can get his rent paid and can find a job that he can stick with for a solid chunk of time. He's lucky if he gets over to a buddy's house to borrow their phone line to get on the internet every now and then. Sorry his real life struggle inconvenienced your video game alterations.  My point is that people who donate large amounts of time for no other reason than good will don't deserve critisicm. On the other hand, I'm not saying that all people who are new and need help are parasites or something. I just think that people need to be more appreciative, more understanding, and to give each other a little more damn respect |
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 7320/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| The problem is simple: People see really easy-to-use editors, and think if it's so easy to hack levels, graphics, etc it must be just as easy to do everything else. They fail to realize the amount of work that it takes to make a good hack even with all these tools. (Look at Nintendo... they have the source code, and professionally-designed editors, which is, except in a few cases, much better than any tool or resource we'll ever have, and it still takes them months to make a good game, because making a good game is simply not that easy.) And of course they usually don't really understand what ASM is, and why nobody's made a generic ASM editor, not realizing that such a thing is impossible (well, beyond assemblers/disassemblers ). |
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Dude Man Koopa Level: 18 Posts: 107/116 EXP: 29288 For next: 609 Since: 05-02-04 From: Wareham Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 7 hours |
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Originally posted by DischOriginally posted by Dude Man Your totally 100% right. Screw level designers and graphics artists. You just pop an idea in your head, program it and it's the next best thing to every Zelda game ever.  |
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Dish Spiny Level: 38 Posts: 583/596 EXP: 355646 For next: 14801 Since: 03-15-04 From: Disch Since last post: 18 days Last activity: 18 days |
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Originally posted by Disch My point was that simply having the ideas isn't enough. Lots of people get good ideas. Actually making them work is the half of the job that people are lacking. |
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Dude Man Koopa Level: 18 Posts: 108/116 EXP: 29288 For next: 609 Since: 05-02-04 From: Wareham Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 7 hours |
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| But you are putting preasure on those on use editors by saying that they aren't as good because they can't program and make games. And creativity doesn't mean coming up with a cool idea. It comes in all shapes and forms of ROM hacking and game making. How do you decide to build a level? Do your programming notes come in handy here???... NO! When you draw up graphics do your asm skills come into play??? NO! What I'm getting at...again... is that there is more to making a game then programming. Yet another example I must give... Lets say you code a game. It's all worked out and ready. You even did the levels and graphics yourself. You play through and decide the graphics need alot of work. You decide to inlist the help of a ROM hacker who can make graphics good (something that is a bit common). Are you gonna patronize him with a bunch of "Well you rely on TLP blah blah blah" Bullshit if he doesn't know how to program or super duper whip up mega flashy gif graphics in photoshop? There are more things to making a game then just programming. Look at the credits of games. EDIT- I'm not siding with n00bs here. I hate a clinger just as much as anybody else. And I believe ROM hackers should at least know basics with Hex (palletes, graphics organizing, etc.) especially with tools like FCEUXD around nowadays. (edited by Dude Man on 09-28-05 10:12 PM) |
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Dish Spiny Level: 38 Posts: 585/596 EXP: 355646 For next: 14801 Since: 03-15-04 From: Disch Since last post: 18 days Last activity: 18 days |
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| I guess I originally took your clip out of context as much as you took mine out. Sorry about that. I don't disagree with what you're saying... but at the same time I don't see the relevence to what you're saying. You're saying that making hacks cannot be done solely with programming/hacking skills. Nobody here is saying otherwise. What we're saying is that some programming/hacking skill is required. You (usually) can't make a good hack solely with pixel artistry and good level design any more than you can make a good hack solely with programming ability. They're two pieces of the puzzle... you need them both to make the product. Now of course there are a handful of exceptions, but they're the rarest of the rare. Typically graphics-only hacks are small scale, boring and unimaginative. Ditto for level-only hacks. Many of the high quality graphics/level only hacks DID require a bit of hacking/programming ability (Auxmines' Justin Bailey Super Metroid hack comes to mind -- something like that DOES take hacking ability despite only being graphics changes). ...Which is what bbit was saying. You can be the best level designer in the world but it won't make any difference if you can't hack for shit. Likewise you can be the best programmer in the world and it won't matter if your level designs are drab. So... in short... you're right... but that's not really what bbit was talking about At least not from what I gathered (certainly wasn't what I was talking about -- although I did take your quote out of context -- again sorry about that)EDIT: forgot to address this:
If you can make a polished product with only X editor, power to you. In all honesty, though... can you think of a single popular/fun/good hack that was made with an editor only? I sure can't. Besides... people that want to stick with an editor is fine. If that's what you want to do, go for it. But when you have problems don't expect everyone to fix everything for you. Again the original note of the topic was that the people who want to go beyond what the editors are capable of aren't willing to learn the knowledge/do the work necessary. If you need to do something that the editor doesn't allow... or you need to fix something the editor broke... guess what. You need to go beyond the editor. So you better get ready for some nitty-gritty, old fashioned ROM hacking. Those who get to that point but aren't willing are the ones I have beef with. If you're content with X editor then that's all fine and dandy. (edited by Disch on 09-28-05 10:56 PM) (edited by Disch on 09-28-05 10:57 PM) |
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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - The sad state of the rom hacking community |
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