 |
| Register | Login | |||||
 |
Main
| Memberlist
| Active users
| ACS
| Commons
| Calendar
| Online users Ranks | FAQ | Color Chart | Photo album | IRC Chat |
|
| | ||
|
| Register | Login | |||||
|
Main
| Memberlist
| Active users
| ACS
| Commons
| Calendar
| Online users Ranks | FAQ | Color Chart | Photo album | IRC Chat |
|
| | ||
| 0 user currently in World Affairs / Debate. |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Prison systems/Death sentences |
 |  |  |
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 | Add to favorites | "RSS" Feed | Next newer thread | Next older thread |
| User | Post | ||
|
Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101  Posts: 5437/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
| ||
The weak-minded view point of "save every living thing" is what's wrong with this world. People who commit attrocious crimes do not deserve to live anymore and it sends out a message that if you do the same then you will recieve the proper punishment. It's sad to think that we live in a world with so many sympathizers to these monsters.  |
|||
|
Wurl 4.0 Level: 18  Posts: 115/244 EXP: 27558 For next: 2339 Since: 09-11-05 From: Illinois: Land of Eternal Desert Since last post: 11 hours Last activity: 10 hours |
| ||
| I don't sympathize with criminals, but is hypocritical to kill somebody simply because they killed somebody. That logic makes no sense. Let them sit in a concrete cube for many years. It's a far worse punishment. Hell, death row prisoners are starting to ask for executions now. | |||
|
Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101 Posts: 5438/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
| ||
Originally posted by Wurl 4.0 How do you figure?  |
|||
|
Wurl 4.0 Level: 18 Posts: 116/244 EXP: 27558 For next: 2339 Since: 09-11-05 From: Illinois: Land of Eternal Desert Since last post: 11 hours Last activity: 10 hours |
| ||
| We condem somebody for killing and our solution is to kill them. It's kind of hypocritical. | |||
|
Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101 Posts: 5439/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
| ||
Originally posted by Wurl 4.0 Nice tunnel-vison you have there. There's a difference between killing maliciously and killing for justice. We have a right to weed out the bad ones just as we have the right to place other criminals under arrest and such. Or unless you're one of "those" people who think anarchy is a good thing.  |
|||
|
Wurl 4.0 Level: 18 Posts: 118/244 EXP: 27558 For next: 2339 Since: 09-11-05 From: Illinois: Land of Eternal Desert Since last post: 11 hours Last activity: 10 hours |
| ||
| I'm no anarchist, but I think that killing a killer is somewhat hypocritical. Let the killers sit in a concrete cube for the rest of their life. It's a far better punishment. | |||
|
Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101 Posts: 5440/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
| ||
| That's really subject to different people's opinions on what's worse. Some people would rather stay in prison. I'll never understand why though. What would be far more affective is torture. I guaruntee crime rate would plummet. Of course, all the bleeding heart and/or holy rollers would be crying their eyes out about the very notion of it. Oh well. -.- |
|||
|
Wurl 4.0 Level: 18 Posts: 119/244 EXP: 27558 For next: 2339 Since: 09-11-05 From: Illinois: Land of Eternal Desert Since last post: 11 hours Last activity: 10 hours |
| ||
| While torture sounds appropriate, it is not the best solution. We can't deny humans, no matter how horrible they are, their basic human rights. We can however keep them away from the rest of society, so they don't pose a threat. If we want to reduce crime, we need to wage an effective war on poverty, promote education (make it acessable) and reduce the social inequalities. For most people, I think enviroment has more to do with crime than the nature of that person. Growing up in a "ghetto" with no opportunities in the least doesn't leave you much of an option. That doesn't mean I'm excusing their actions, but we have to understand what causes them. And one of the root causes is our brutal capitalist system and it's cycle of poverty and inequality. | |||
SamuraiX Paratroopa Level: 19 Posts: 89/140 EXP: 32602 For next: 3175 Since: 10-11-04 From: ^___^ Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
| ||
| Most murder crimes are gun crimes. Most people are not smart enough to murder without a gun. Shooting someone with a gun is seemingly different from a more bloody murdering, such as persay, knifing someone to death. The United States has lots of guns. THat are easy for the population to get hands on. Can any of you see how all of this connects? | |||
geeogree Bloober Level: 34  Posts: 420/448 EXP: 231583 For next: 22068 Since: 03-16-04 From: Calgary, Canada Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 11 hours |
| ||
| sure, they are gun murders.... but it takes a certain kind of person to be able to point a gun and pull the trigger knowing what is going to happen.... | |||
|
SamuraiX Paratroopa Level: 19 Posts: 91/140 EXP: 32602 For next: 3175 Since: 10-11-04 From: ^___^ Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
| ||
Originally posted by geeogree It is not that hard to shoot someone on an impulse, but itis far harder to make the choice to eat someone alive. |
|||
|
Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101 Posts: 5441/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
| ||
| "Most people are not smart enough to murder without a gun." Yeah, one of these days people will figure out how to stab people. Personally, I'm working on it. It's tricky though... My first mistake was holding the blade and trying to stab this dummy target I set up with the handle. Oh well, trial and error I suppose. Now with the sarcasm out of the way, gun control wont work. There will STILL be illegal firearms all over the place. Even if they didn't exist, it wouldn't affect the murder rate by any noticable rate. |
|||
|
SamuraiX Paratroopa Level: 19 Posts: 93/140 EXP: 32602 For next: 3175 Since: 10-11-04 From: ^___^ Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
| ||
Originally posted by Legion Hence, why the U.S. has such high murder rates. And legion, why use a knife? Knives are so primitive. |
|||
|
Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101 Posts: 5442/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
| ||
But they're so much more fun. You have to actually get down to the nitty-gritty to kill someone. Only n00bs have to shoot people from afar.  No one wants to work for anything these days. |
|||
|
SamuraiX Paratroopa Level: 19 Posts: 95/140 EXP: 32602 For next: 3175 Since: 10-11-04 From: ^___^ Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
| ||
But it is only fun if you use stuff like brown recluse poison , N(l), or C2H5OH. |
|||
Zer0wned Cheep-cheep Level: 17  Posts: 174/181 EXP: 21472 For next: 3271 Since: 08-16-05 From: Hermosa Beach, CA Since last post: 30 days Last activity: 30 days |
| ||
Originally posted by Wurl 4.0 Who brainwashed you into believing that one? Unrealistic, regurgited, pity-squandering nonsense if you ask me. Poverty in America is becoming more and more of a result of bad choices than a circumstance. That whole "you can take me outta the ghetto, but you can't take the ghetto outta me" type mindset is typical proof that those less fortunate aren't always unfortunate, they're more often just stupid and stubborn. Having spent a good deal of time both in poverty, and with those in poverty, I know what's going on first hand. People need to both swallow their pride and stop blaming everyone else for their problems. @leg I know, seriously, I mean, when's the last time you've heard of someone getting beaten to death when it wasn't like a full grown man on a little kid, or 5 on 1? Guns are rarely used fatally from more than like 5 feet, and people are rarely killed without weapons. I find this to be a highly disturbing trend. (edited by Zer0wned on 10-01-05 02:30 PM) |
|||
|
SamuraiX Paratroopa Level: 19 Posts: 103/140 EXP: 32602 For next: 3175 Since: 10-11-04 From: ^___^ Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
| ||
Originally posted by Zer0wnedOriginally posted by Wurl 4.0 Most people are too stupid to make explosives(C-1, ammonium trioxide, etc)thankfully. And those who know...well, they are not murderous. (edited by SamuraiX on 10-01-05 10:12 PM) |
|||
|
Wurl 4.0 Level: 18 Posts: 123/244 EXP: 27558 For next: 2339 Since: 09-11-05 From: Illinois: Land of Eternal Desert Since last post: 11 hours Last activity: 10 hours |
| ||
Originally posted by Zer0wnedOriginally posted by Wurl 4.0 I never said poor people were never at fault, but frankly poor people get fucked by the system. |
|||
Snika Boo Level: 44  Posts: 769/916 EXP: 600678 For next: 10607 Since: 07-21-04 From: Freezing Cold Alaska! Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 2 days |
| ||
| I suppose that the death sentence is hipocritical in the fact that you are doing something they got arrested for. Quite frankly, in this world we sometimes have to be hipocritical. | |||
ziratha Ninji Level: 24 Posts: 214/231 EXP: 77808 For next: 317 Since: 06-29-04 Since last post: 4 days Last activity: 17 days |
| ||
| Ok, I read the first few pages, And am now ready to put in my 702 cents. For the purposes of the below, the criminal will be a murdering rapist, who is in violation of both contracts detailed below. Also, this will sould very harsh and unfeeling, its just what I think. The way I see it, What rights have we to jail anyone? After all, We all have God given rights to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..." Sure, maybe THey did something against the law, but what right have we to Say what is right and the law? We can't, there is no 100% verifiable right and wrong in our world as it is today. Do they exist? maybe, but we dont know what they are. Which means that The decision to jail someone cannot be derived from right and wrong. There is another source. We (society) have a CONTRACT with them (individuals). In exchange for protection, basic human rights and such, they in turn agree to Follow our laws, pay taxes, etc. They are in violation of this contract. Therefore, they are no longer eligable for the argument; "They dont deserve that! They are still citizens!" So this argument CANNOT be considered or used at all. However, They are still people, and in this country, we have GOD given rights that can NEVER be legally taken away. So the following arguemnt seems valid; "They are people too! They dont deserve that!" And if they are people, then their rights are holy, legally unremovable by their fellow man. "But ziratha, That would mean we have to free every one in custody in the entire correctional program!!!" Untrue, See while we have a societal contract there is a second, also important contract. This contract is between me and you, and you and him, and him and the other guy. This contract is the contract of humanity. It applies between aevery perosn in existence and every other person. It goes something like this: As long as I do not take away your God given rights, You do not take away mine. Short and sweet? you betcha. But think, As long as they are in violation of this contract, we have not only the right, but the duty to hold them accountable. "But ziratha, you just re-invented the wheel, what does that have anything to do with the standards of jail/prison/punishment?" Ok, breathe deep... In... Out... If you have followed my post so far you may notice something, These two contracts prevent not only the rights of the victim from being violated, the protect the rights of the criminal. Now consider this, if the criminal violates his end of the bargain, he gives up his right to claim his humanity or his citizenship as a plea for fairness. The criminal has knowingly and purposely removed himself from both citizenship and humanity itself. A human being does not have the right to rape and kill another human being, so he is no longer classified as human for the sake of this argument. A citizen does not have the right to rape and murder another, so he is no longer a citizen. What we now have is something else, for the sake of arguemtn we will now classify this criminal as dog/non citizen. What do you do when said dog bites/kills someone? you put it down. Simple as that. This seems REALLY harsh, I know. But we are not people for the sake of justice, we are society, and society has no soul to be damned and no morals to feel guilty. So as society, We are not in violation with either contract to do what we have done and morals do not enter the equation. Let me give you a quote, "Morals only matter between equals in power." This was said to a sieged state by an invader. I Would like to give a similar derived quote, based on the above. "Morals only matter between contractual equals." The criminal has removed himself from the status of equality, and so morals no longer matter. "But ziratha!!!!!! This statement means that we can do whatever we want to a criminal and suffer no reasonable recourse!!!!" NO it does not. You see, there Are more contracts,first there is the contract of master and companion. The contract of master and companion states this; "I as your master (me/you/people) have a duty to you (animal/companion) that so long as you are in my care, I must take care of you and do you no unfair suffering." Since this crimanl has removed himself from humanity and society he is, for all intents and purposes, our pet. And you cant torture your pet. There is another reason, remember "Morals only matter between contractual equals" Why should I, an unfeeling soulless society, care that you are wrong/evil? I only care that you are in violation of contract. Therefore I have no reason whatsoever to treat you as an evil thing because as an unfeeling society, I do not know that you are evil. And we have no way of proving that they are, morals are an attribute of the individual and it is not up to the individual to punish. "But ziratha, what about the death penalty? How can we, a soulless, morally absent society decide to put to death a creature, such as our evil rapist/murderer, Even if we can do it without the dog (as you class him) suffering?" There are several answers. Money Because we can Justice Justice is a noble answer, but remember, we are a soulless unfeeling society creature, we do not know or comprehend justice. Money, Money is a reasonable and fair answer, if you, a person, find a dog on the street, why should you take care of it? because its the right thing? so what? We as a society do not have feelings and are unable to decide adaquatly what is right. So we are incapable of doing the right thing for its own sake. So again, why should something that is incapable of judging right and wrong take care of this dog. And if we find somehow that this dog is in our possession, why should we continue to take care of it? why not put it down? One word. Doubt. While the justice system only requires proof beyond reasonable doubt, The death penalty should require Proof beyond all doubt. Meaning that there should be dna, video, and a busload of nuns who all say that he did it. If there is any doubt whatsoever, then we risk becoming in violation of the very contracts which I have quoted to support my position. It would not be a mistake, it would not be an accident, it would be murder and we would no longer deserve the status of society. If the criminal has not actually rendered himself unhuman, then he deserves said protection and we do not have the right to kill a human. Because we can... Well, I dunno, this argument is left as an exercise to the reader. "But ziratha, What about lesser offenses? Should they get the death penatly too?" The way I see it, these are the following ways things can happen: type one: the purp is in violation neither the contract we have as individuals nor the contract between himself and society. type two: the purp is in violation of the contract we have as individuals but not between himself and society. Type three: The purp is in violation of the contract between him and society But not of the other contract. Type four: The purp is in violation of both. What should the penalties be for these crimes? Type one, No harm, no foul type two, I dunno, case by case basis. i got it, defemation of character would fit Probalby a civil suit Type three, You steal a ton of gold from fort knox. You go to jail for an appropriate amount of time. type four, Death, life in prison, Exile*. No 'ifs' 'ands' or 'buts'. Murder, assualt with a deadly, attempted murder, armed robbery, rape,etc. *Exile, this would mean, basically, you are taken to the boarders and released. If you reenter, you are offered no protection whatsoever, and if someone harms you, you will be treated as an animal for all intents and purposes and they will only be punished for cruelty to animals. If you leave, We send your picture and fingerprints/dna to all governments on earth and if they want you, they let you enter, if not, sucks to be you. so, in summary, We not only have the right, but the duty to enforce the law. We are not punishing for the sake of morality, but for the sake of contractual law. The death sentance needs the requirement of proof beyond all doubt. |
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 | Add to favorites | "RSS" Feed | Next newer thread | Next older thread |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Prison systems/Death sentences |
| | |
