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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Bird Origins |
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Which of these do you think are where the true origin of birds lies?| Birds are descended from dinosaurs |
100.0%, 16 votes | Birds are descended from animals related to both crocodiles and dinosaurs (i.e. "thecodonts" like Megalancosaurus and Longisquama) |
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0.0%, 0 vote | Birds are descended from crocodile related animals (i.e. pseudosuchians) |
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0.0%, 0 vote | Birds are descended from mammal ancestors |
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0.0%, 0 vote | Multi-voting is disabled.
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Thayer Fuzz Ball Level: 38  Posts: 568/988 EXP: 349428 For next: 21019 Since: 06-28-05 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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This is a somewhat hotly debated item in science, I wonder how you all feel about it.  I encourage the usual heavy posters in these forums to post, you know who you are, and you know you're knowledgeable of course ;D (edited by Thayer on 09-17-05 08:33 AM) |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35  Posts: 474/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| It's not actually tht hotly debated... most accept the dinosaurs explaination, but occasionally someone with a different idea gets way too much airplay because of the creationist wingnuts. | |||
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Thayer Fuzz Ball Level: 38 Posts: 569/988 EXP: 349428 For next: 21019 Since: 06-28-05 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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Originally posted by Arwon Creationists have little to do with the airplay that the opposition gets. Opposing concepts get that solely because the media caters to the fringe. Oddly, creationists often use the opposition to the most popular idea within evolutionary circles, even if it contradicts their own ideas, which if anything demonstrates how desparate they are.  (edited by Thayer on 09-17-05 09:10 AM) (edited by Thayer on 09-17-05 09:11 AM) |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99  Posts: 5303/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Ummm, what opposition? This has ALWAYS been one of the mainline theories ever since the 70s in the paleontology. In fact, ever since the discovery of the Iguanadon (post-Crystal Palace dinosaur model) there were fringe thinkers (in big numbers, too, because most of them were Darwinians, too) that dinosaurs and birds, due to the similarities in their hip structure as well as the structure of their bodies...Well, they just always had those nasty thoughts of evolution  And like Arwon said, the only people that challenge this are the mammalian dinosaur theorists (believing that the dinosaurs had to have warm blood and glands similar to us...which makes little sense given the EGGS) and other fringe groups. |
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Thayer Fuzz Ball Level: 38 Posts: 577/988 EXP: 349428 For next: 21019 Since: 06-28-05 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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| Uhm, I'm not sure where you're reading this, or if you've just pulled this out from between your legs to write it, but you're wrong on several points. There are oppositions to the idea that birds are dinosaurs (I'll use the popular abbreviation-BADD, i.e. birds are dinosaurian descendants), those primarily being that that birds were descended from small early archosauromorphs (like megalancosaurids, protorosaurs, and Longisquama, they rarely settle on how this works exactly, this is usually called by the abbreviations-BAND i.e. birds are not dinosaurs; or ABSRD- i.e. anything but a small running dinosaur). The only other alternatives that were suggested was that birds were descended from primitive crocodile-ancestors (not crocodiles themselves, but that they would share an ancestry between them) or that birds were descended from primitive mammal-ancestors (same comment as on the other one). As for what you said, no one ever suggested that dinosaurs and mammals shared a common ancestor, and the idea was that both birds and mammals are warm-blooded and share similiar genes (but has anyone ever actually gotten dinosaur DNA, not counting Michael Chricton of course ?) And as for laying eggs, that's hardly a boundary to such an idea, afterall primitive mammals like monotremes lay eggs (echnidas and platypi, of course  ). As for Arwon was saying, I think you've misinterpreted it. He said that the opposition gets attention due to creationists (which is partly but not totally true), and he never said anything about your mammal-dinosaur statements that you then went on to make.As for the rest of what you said, you might want to investigate the Dinosaur Renaissance a little more closely than a glance through Wiki/Google, the majority of articles written in favor of the revived views of dinosaurs were seen as largely heterodox until the mid 80s. Yes, during the early periods of dinosaur studies, dinosaurs were accepted as being somewhat more active than average reptiles, but no where near what was suggested later on. And the idea that birds were related to dinosaurs closely lost favor as well until the Dinosaur Renaissance started. And Iguanodon (not "Iguanadon") was discovered, it was regarded as a large lizard like animal with a horn on its snout. It wasn't until the Bernissart specimens that this changed drastically. And even then, Archaeopteryx lithographica and Compsognathus longipipes were far more impactful on the idea than Iguanodon Out of curiosity, where did you get your information for what you wrote previously? |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 5313/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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The 3rd year paleontologist that works with the universities projects at the museum? I don't know. His degree must not mean anything  |
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Thayer Fuzz Ball Level: 38 Posts: 582/988 EXP: 349428 For next: 21019 Since: 06-28-05 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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| Which university and which museum? Name? (edited by Thayer on 09-17-05 01:42 PM) (edited by Thayer on 09-17-05 01:43 PM) |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 5315/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Those that know know where I go, and if they read this I'd ask them to not tell you. Sorry but I <3 privacy from pppl. lozl |
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Thayer Fuzz Ball Level: 38 Posts: 583/988 EXP: 349428 For next: 21019 Since: 06-28-05 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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| So in other words, you can't back up your statements. gjZiff~ | |||
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 5316/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| way to ct and pst frum wizkcki lolz | |||
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Thayer Fuzz Ball Level: 38 Posts: 584/988 EXP: 349428 For next: 21019 Since: 06-28-05 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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| I'll assume then that you just BS'd through this whole thread. I really expected more from you. |
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Slay Level: 25 Posts: 310/339 EXP: 85592 For next: 4028 Since: 04-28-05 From: Threshold Between Heaven and Hell Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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| About the poll; the term thecodont is no longer is use. It's an obsolete term. As for the topic at hand, I'm not educated enough on the subject to form an opinion, but I do not subscribe to theories of macroevolution. Microevolution is observable, macroevolution boils down to, "Given billions of years, it's plausible that microevolution changes creatures so radically as to become entirely new species." This has yet to be proven, demonstrated or observed. Hmm, a thought; has it ever been proven beyond reasonable doubt that dinosaurs had reptilian scales? I seem to recall a program on the Discovery channel exploring the possibility that dinosaurs had feathers and soft skin, rather than scales. The CG models looked quite plausible in my eyes. I don't know why, but I never saw giant reptiles as anything other than horror movie fodder. I'm curious, have we ever found the organs or tissues of a dinosaur? From what I understand, all we have are bones. Therefore, can anyone really say with any certainty that dinosaurs were reptilian, or cold-blooded? Unless we could see their organs or such, all we have is postulation and theory. This topic has sparked my interest into paleontology... |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 5318/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| I've found that with this slump in decent posters (SLAY YOU ARE A GODSEND KEEP POSTING FOR GODS FUCKING SAKE!) that I just don't have the energy to use my brain, which is being put to better use for interpreting Charlemagne's campaign rather than arguing with accusatory pricks on some moronic website. Really, I'm surprised that you and your IMMENSE intelligence couldn't detect the LOL and get off your srs buzinss train Anyways, I have my right to privacy. I live in Canada. And I don't go to the university that everyone thinks I go to :o OH NO! Regardless of this, the gentleman upstairs simply told me what he told me. Believe it if you want. But otherwise you're just not being lol enough. |
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Thayer Fuzz Ball Level: 38 Posts: 585/988 EXP: 349428 For next: 21019 Since: 06-28-05 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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Originally posted by Slay I recognized that "thecodont" is obsolete. That's why it's in quotes.
Some dinosaur fossils (mostly maniraptorans from the Yixian Formation of China) have been recovered with imprints of feathers, but also with scales too (NGMC 91 and Scansoriopteryx come to mind). Tyrannosaurid skin impressions are known and they show scales on at least part of the body. Same for the few ceratopsians and hadrosaurs with skin integument preserved.
Sparking interest in paleontology is something I like to do ~ Anyway, as far as preserved organs, at least Scipionyx comes to mind, but its organs were rather smashed. I'll dig out my "Dinosaurs of the Air" by Gregory S. Paul if necessary as a good general defense of dinosaur warm bloodness, if I need to go into details. You can also check the archives of Dinosaur Mailing List (in fact, I encourage you to do so if you are interested!). Originally posted by alte Hexe You seem very offended, and I can't really understand why. All of my comments seem justified. And incidentally, I don't really see Slay's post as doing anything that has hurt what I've said overall.
Don't make statements that you can't back up, enough said. I really recommend you don't play the name-dropping game with me on this. (edited by Thayer on 09-17-05 02:07 PM) |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 5321/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Slay: Yes they have. A quary in China near Korea. They made some really neat finds regarding the classifications of many dinosaurs. They found a stomach with most of the contents preserved. I can't remember the dinosaur...But it may have been the Sacred Confuscious Lizard, or something similar to that. It was a long time since I bothered picking up the university newspaper. Thayer mentioned it, although I know it by another spelling As for my comment about Slay. Generally his posts although contradictory to my beliefs, are fairly interesting and although a long read, a worthwhile read. |
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Thayer Fuzz Ball Level: 38 Posts: 586/988 EXP: 349428 For next: 21019 Since: 06-28-05 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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| You're referring to the Yixian and Jiufotang formations in China (yep, near Korea too), and Sinosauropteryx prima, which is not the same as Scipionyx samniticus, which is from Italy (which is what I was referring to above), and only has the stomach contents (but not the stomach itself) preserved. There is no "sacred Confucius lizard", you're thinking of Confuciusornis (which would mean something like "Confucius bird"). What other spelling are you aware of? Because I'm not. And I'd dare challenge that there isn't another one either. |
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Zer0wned Cheep-cheep Level: 17  Posts: 134/181 EXP: 21472 For next: 3271 Since: 08-16-05 From: Hermosa Beach, CA Since last post: 30 days Last activity: 30 days |
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Originally posted by Slay How about dogs? Or moths? Maybe not the end-all proof, but certainly in the favor of those who find "macroevolution" to be a very likely answer. We really only have like 10000 or so (I'm throwing a number out here, so don't take that too seriously, I'm talking about recorded history, I just don't find it entirely necessary to find out very specifically how far back this goes for the sake of this arguement) years of give or take "reliable" evidence to tool around with. So instead of looking for the millions of year process of large-scale from single cell organism to fully formed human as proof of "macroevolution", we have to find smaller scale examples, like the survival of the fittest with the white moths during the industrial revolution, which from what I recall, died out in certain areas because they no longer blended in with the trees they hid on, and thusly a darker version of this moth came out on top, because they did blend in with the trees that were consequently darker from the smoke in the air Now I think dogs are the closest thing to proof we have. Through selective breeding, we've specialized these creatures for hunting various animals, for being obedient, and/or being fairly docile for more house-pet purposes. I find it extremely unlikely that nearly all of each of these were wild breeds that were captured and domesticated in each of their entireties, and just happened to be well suited in catching what people wanted them to in a way they wanted them to. A counter arguement to that I would expect is saying that there is a huge difference between selective, controlled breeding, and the debated natural selection. To that I would like to say that the only difference I see is in who is making the decision on what traits are considered favorable. |
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Thayer Fuzz Ball Level: 38 Posts: 589/988 EXP: 349428 For next: 21019 Since: 06-28-05 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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| Slay: Personally, I don't subscribe to that microevolution is separate from macroevolution. I don't see any difference between the two. Out of curiousity, would you like to consider looking at this from a classification standpoint? I realize given your viewpoints (if I understood them correctly), this would be arbitrary, but do you feel that birds can be classified as dinosaurs? (edited by Thayer on 09-17-05 03:26 PM) |
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 502/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by Slay Speciation has been observed: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 5327/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Thayer, stop using Wikipedia please. |
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