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2 users currently in General Chat:  Dark Vampriel |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - General Chat - What do American (public) schools teach? |
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Silvershield Slime Level: 30 Posts: 64/345 EXP: 153029 For next: 12840 Since: 04-11-04 From: New Jersey Since last post: 60 days Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by AppleI'm definitely not into the craze, either, and I've a small bit of German blood, too  .You're absolutely, 100% right. When the writer is given the task of educating potentially thousands of students, opinions should never take precedence over straight and factual information. That includes labelling the opposing sides of a conflict, no matter how much one might appear good and the other evil. |
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Kefka Indefinitely Unbanned Level: 81 Posts: 879/3392 EXP: 4826208 For next: 166641 Since: 03-15-04 From: Pomona, CALIFORNIA BABY! Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| They teach historical inaccuracies and how to fight, because often you have to get in fights just to prove yourself or hold your ground... yep, that's what I got outta them... | |||
CESum Red Goomba Level: 11  Posts: 20/36 EXP: 5267 For next: 718 Since: 03-17-04 From: Southern California Since last post: 552 days Last activity: 303 days |
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| My experience is that we are taught to be the same even though each of us is supposedly special. As for the content, in math and science, it's all good, but in history, it's all "america did this, did that, etc." and nothing that shows both sides. Less language exposure, and no real concern when it comes to computer science. | |||
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kitty Come on babe, pet the pussy ;) Level: 70 Posts: 692/2449 EXP: 2962406 For next: 53405 Since: 03-15-04 From: Scranton, PA, USA Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 3 hours |
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| Ok, when I started this I wasn't asking everyone to post their schedules. My point is that American public schools have standards that are too low. You say the kids don't care? MAKE THEM. Anyone who scores less than a 65% on that standardized aptitude test fails, PERIOD. The problem is that teachers don't actually discipline the morons who "Don't feel motivated enough." If they don't hand in their homework, they fail. If they fail one subject, they do not pass to the next grade. It's that simple. The problem is that teachers have to make the tests easier to pass the kids. Why? Because the schools can't afford to hold back the stupid kids who should be. Why? Because teachers make too much fucking money. It would be OK if they got paid that much while their students show intelligence and high scores, but it's NOT ok when kids should be failing. Less salary -> more money for the schools -> can afford to fail students who deserve to be failed. More salary -> kids actually LEARN -> don't need to fail anyone -> don't need as much money to run schools. Why does failing cost money? No room for students in schools leads to new schools or expansion of previous schools. More books and supplies needed. More teachers needed. EDIT: Oh, and also, if the students actually learned, the grades could be cut by AT LEAST 2. A LOT of the stuff was overly repetitive. Cut out the repetition, if they actually pass due to their knowledge, you don't need to reteach them. That alone would save a truckload of money! This problem is only getting worse, not better. Teachers' unions threaten to strike or do strike and it shuts the school down. Solution to that? HIRE SUBSTITUTE TEACHERS. I'm sure they'd be happy to make what's "Not enough" for the shitty teachers they currently have. They'd do a better job too. Main bottom line: Teachers are overpaid. Give them pay based on their performance. If their students average score is a 65% on the aptitude or less, since it's failing, don't pay the teachers, because that means they failed as well. If the average score is, say, 67%, they would only make $18,000. Also, if the average is under 70%, they get fired! That would motivate the teachers. Teachers: Not the threat of, but knowing that you WILL be paid less if you are a poor teacher will make them care. Students: Once again, not the threat of failing, but knowing you WILL fail and be held back will make them care. Oh, and make students who fail all gather in the auditorium or whatever on stage with all the students who got a 90% or better on the test there to laugh at them. That'd embarass them so much that they would HAVE TO make sure it never happened again. Awwww but none of this is politically correct, our conservative society would never allow it!  (edited by Yiffy Kitten on 04-18-04 04:48 PM) |
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kitty Come on babe, pet the pussy ;) Level: 70 Posts: 693/2449 EXP: 2962406 For next: 53405 Since: 03-15-04 From: Scranton, PA, USA Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 3 hours |
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Originally posted by CESum I wanted to reply to this as well without quoting a second post: That's what technical schools are for. Stuff like that (career options) needn't be taught in grade schools. Not everyone, not even 5%, will become computer programmers. It's a wasteful subject in grade schools that costs a LOT of money (need computers, legal copies of software, and teachers for it). Students will learn how to use computers on their own - almost everyone has one, and those who don't just don't care. Grade schools need to be for learning, not training, this isn't Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia. Let the students decide for themselves. |
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Toxic in a sublime state of mind Level: 75  Posts: 854/2857 EXP: 3732709 For next: 94195 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 3 days Last activity: 8 hours |
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| Your ideas tie in with one of my main, and very radical idea. If there is a disruptive kid, like a habitual cutter, a kid who sells crack in the bathroom, a moron who dumps stinkbombs in the cafeteria....kid him the fuck out. I really don't care if it is a public school. I want to be in the best learning enviroment possible, as my learning means money for me later. And for the most part, people who posted their schedule were defending the intelligent of the ever shrinking population of non-morons. |
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kitty Come on babe, pet the pussy ;) Level: 70 Posts: 698/2449 EXP: 2962406 For next: 53405 Since: 03-15-04 From: Scranton, PA, USA Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 3 hours |
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| Toxic: I don't view that as a radical idea. I view it as COMMON SENSE that SHOULD (and MUST) be enforced for the betterment of schools. | |||
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Silvershield Slime Level: 30 Posts: 78/345 EXP: 153029 For next: 12840 Since: 04-11-04 From: New Jersey Since last post: 60 days Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by Yiffy KittenHmm, I never thought of political correctness being a conservative ideal  .But anyhow, I admire your zeal and I agree with much of what you say. I wish you weren't quite so biased against "bad" teachers, though; many teachers whose students do poorly on standardized tests are actually highly skilled educators. However, they often do not possess the ability to intimidate their students into behaving, an action that is often necessary for optimum learning. Take it from a current high school student: when a nice, likable teacher is saddled with a non-honors class, that teacher is often abused, mistreated, and downright ignored by students. In a class full of students who behave, that teacher would do wonderfully, but how can you expect a five foot, hundred-twenty pound woman to get the attention of a bunch of jocks (who are twice her size) who have no intention of learning? |
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kitty Come on babe, pet the pussy ;) Level: 70 Posts: 700/2449 EXP: 2962406 For next: 53405 Since: 03-15-04 From: Scranton, PA, USA Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 3 hours |
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| How? Put a fucking ruler in her hand and have her slap the wrists of students who disobey. Simple problem, simpler solution. Oh but once again our conservative society won't allow that! "Dont hurt my spoiled rotten Johnny even if he is a dipshit!" |
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Silvershield Slime Level: 30 Posts: 79/345 EXP: 153029 For next: 12840 Since: 04-11-04 From: New Jersey Since last post: 60 days Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by Yiffy KittenI wish that piece of godly wisdom came from my own mouth, Yiffy Kitten  .Ya see, if a teacher ever hit me for being a jackass, my parents would probably contact the teacher and thank him or her for doing it! My mom and dad have never tolerated any disrespect of that sort. Your solution would be ideal if every parent were like that. Too bad that most think that their precious little kiddies should not be subject to abuse, no matter how much they have it coming to them! |
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Kefka Indefinitely Unbanned Level: 81 Posts: 891/3392 EXP: 4826208 For next: 166641 Since: 03-15-04 From: Pomona, CALIFORNIA BABY! Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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Thing I hate most about high school is too many teachers use the bell curve...  so there will always be someone who fails... I HATE that! Why can't it be like lots of colleges do, and have people get graded as an A if they do a good job, instead of ALWAYS having someone get an A, B, C, D, and F? |
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Lord Rahl Snap Dragon Level: 43  Posts: 248/792 EXP: 544657 For next: 20389 Since: 03-15-04 From: Temple of the Winds - Training Room Since last post: 43 days Last activity: 7 days |
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| My school, at the least, my high school, has had certain teachers who follow the rule "If you're not hear to learn, leave." Then again, there are teachers who kick students out for the sole reason that they don't like that student. All in all, though, I don't hate the kids who are too dumb to pass. Most kids in grade 12 can get the needed mark of 60%. If not, they arn't taking 30 level courses because they're still in grade 11. I hate the kids who go out of their way to harass other students behind the teacher's back, then appear to be little angels when the teacher returns. An example of which being two idiots in my English class using rubber bands to shoot thumb tacks across the room. As for my classes, I have 4 blocks a day, 80 miniutes long each, with a 55 miniute lunch break in the middle. I have two classes of Work Experence 30 in the morning, during which I work at Fusion: Card and Game, a local game shop. After lunch, I have English 30-2, where we have just been given a ~300 page book and seven weeks to read it. *snore* My last class is Physics 30, where we do fun experments and are currently studying electricity. And just so you know, I go to school in Alberta, Canada. |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38  Posts: 94/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Amateurs. Main bottom line: Teachers are overpaid. Give them pay based on their performance. If their students average score is a 65% on the aptitude or less, since it's failing, don't pay the teachers, because that means they failed as well. If the average score is, say, 67%, they would only make $18,000. Also, if the average is under 70%, they get fired! That would motivate the teachers. Teachers: Not the threat of, but knowing that you WILL be paid less if you are a poor teacher will make them care. Students: Once again, not the threat of failing, but knowing you WILL fail and be held back will make them care. Oh, and make students who fail all gather in the auditorium or whatever on stage with all the students who got a 90% or better on the test there to laugh at them. That'd embarass them so much that they would HAVE TO make sure it never happened again. Awwww but none of this is politically correct, our conservative society would never allow it! First of all, this would mean that teachers at struggling schools would get paid LESS, which would mean that good teachers would avoid struggling schools, which would mean that they would get worse. You can't just tie test scores to teacher performance.. there are huge social variables involved. Does a teacher in an urban area inherantly deserve less than a teacher in an upper-middle class one? Can you really hold the teacher responsible for lower test scores? Hell no. Maybe you could compare scores when you control for all the social variables, but.. even then, it's an iffy system. Teachers are dramatically underpaid. For the amount of training and time commitment a teacher requires, there are many other career options that pay at a much higher rate. As a result, many of the most talented would-be teachers end up elsewhere. You can carry on some idealistic "well, if they're teaching for money, they shouldn't be teaching" view, but in reality, the fact that a poor teaching wage means you get bad teachers is common sense. I'd rather see a more.. European education system, if anything. High wages that draw talented teachers, but also... a more selective process. Let's face it, most people could get by just find without a high school education. Therefore, children who don't show promise should either not be compelled to enroll or be siphoned off into trade schools. Of course, such a system's viability would be contingent on its fairness... if poor kids are always thrown into manufacturing schools and rich kids go on all the way, then you'd have a serious problem. Simple-minded solutions are full of problems. Oh but once again our conservative society won't allow that! "Dont hurt my spoiled rotten Johnny even if he is a dipshit!" Even better, we could have an incinerator that we could feed the bad kids to to keep the good ones warm during the winter. But our conservative society would never allow that! (edited by hhallahh on 04-19-04 02:54 AM) |
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Silvershield Slime Level: 30 Posts: 81/345 EXP: 153029 For next: 12840 Since: 04-11-04 From: New Jersey Since last post: 60 days Last activity: 6 hours |
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| Really, I must ask, how is a society that denounces violent solutions to this kind of problem considered conservative? I've always seen the conservative stance as more of a "things were great back in the old days" kind of thing; back in the "old days," physical violence was an encouraged method of disciplining children who behaved poorly. If anything, our society is liberal in that matter. Edit: Changed "physical" to "violent" to improve clarity. (edited by Silvershield on 04-19-04 07:13 AM) |
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KawaiiImoto-e Hammer Brother Level: 49 Posts: 214/1068 EXP: 852917 For next: 30966 Since: 03-15-04 From: In my own little complicated dreamworld Since last post: 16 days Last activity: 4 days |
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| Teachers are underpaid, not only in the USA. But here in Switzerland, we got a working educational system. And it's so like Yiffy Kitten said, bad marks ARE bad. I only got 2 Days of school (With different subjects), but when I'm under a 4 (it's rated from 1-6, 6 = 'very good', 5 = 'good', 4 = 'satisfaing', 3 = 'unsatisfaing', 2 = 'bad' and 1 = 'very bad'.) the teachers not gonna ask much questions, but if you do that on more than one test, teachers gonna ask what's up. and if this happens in different subjects, the School cunselor will ask questions. And will take actions. If you're under a 3 in average (average over all subjects) over 2 terms (1 year), you will be 'kicked' from the school, or put a year back. So, here in Switzerland, it's almost like Yiffy Kitten want's to have it. |
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Toxic in a sublime state of mind Level: 75 Posts: 862/2857 EXP: 3732709 For next: 94195 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 3 days Last activity: 8 hours |
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Originally posted by Yiffy Kitten By today's standards it is unfortuantely. It'll never be done, unlesss we move to like Russia. |
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kitty Come on babe, pet the pussy ;) Level: 70 Posts: 703/2449 EXP: 2962406 For next: 53405 Since: 03-15-04 From: Scranton, PA, USA Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 3 hours |
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Originally posted by hhallahh 1) Are you saying that kids who live in urban areas are inherently dumber than kids who live in upper-class areas? This is also part of the problem. Nobody expects the kids living in downtown Philly to score as good as the kids living in Valley Forge. But you know what? There is no god damn reason they shouldn't. If anything, they should score BETTER, because they live in a more competitive environment. They just don't have the desire or the motivation. Just because one school's main student population comes from the trailor park doesnt mean that they are less intelligent, therefore they shouldn't be expected to score as well, as the ones that come from the overpriced houses on the mountain. 2) I don't know what world you live in but to me, $45,000 for 180 days worth of work year, which is the equivalent of the average person's 261 day workyear giving them a salary of $65,000, is too much when the students perform like shit. Maybe you didnt read my post. I would be happy to see them get paid $60,000 a year if our kids weren't turning out like they were hopping around in potato sacks in a minefield. Not to mention that the teachers get the best benefits of any other union, which I dont think they should get if they don't perform, either. Before you go arguing with me, read what I say, and understand it, before you attack me. And the sarcastic remark towards my suggestion of teachers with rulers (which used to happen in the "Good old days" when kids turned out right, and not into a bunch of hippie freaks or pussies and dumbasses like today) just goes to show that someday, if you have kids, you will be a horrible parent and your children will be spoiled rotten. See, once again, you don't understand: The mere fact that they know, if they misbehave, they will suffer physical pain and mental anguish (mockery is good in some cases), they won't misbehave, and they'll keep on the right path. |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35  Posts: 32/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| Breed a population that is kept in line through fear of derision and punishment? Yep, sounds like a recipe healthy, forward moving, creative and dynamic society to me! | |||
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 95/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| 1) Are you saying that kids who live in urban areas are inherently dumber than kids who live in upper-class areas? This is also part of the problem. Nobody expects the kids living in downtown Philly to score as good as the kids living in Valley Forge. But you know what? There is no god damn reason they shouldn't. If anything, they should score BETTER, because they live in a more competitive environment. They just don't have the desire or the motivation. Just because one school's main student population comes from the trailor park doesnt mean that they are less intelligent, therefore they shouldn't be expected to score as well, as the ones that come from the overpriced houses on the mountain. Yea, feel free to come up with a plan to make the kids in downtown Philly do as well as the Valley Forge kids. Does it involve savage beatings? If so, I wouldn't call it much of a plan. Is it more difficult to instill desire and motivation in kids from the lower classes? Um, yea. Of course. So wouldn't that imply that urban teachers should be paid more, since they face an uphill battle? And it should be more competitive there? Among the teachers? Yea, that's a great working environment: "I better milk Johnny for some extra points or else I won't get my paycheck!" Let's not forget the simply fact that if teachers are paid relative to their performance to one and another, there will always be winners and losers. Will a teacher who faces a pay cut several years in a row stay a teacher? No. And there will always be a certain amount of teachers who face paycuts. Having an ultracompetitive workplace is extremely bad for actually keeping employees. 2) I don't know what world you live in but to me, $45,000 for 180 days worth of work year, which is the equivalent of the average person's 261 day workyear giving them a salary of $65,000, is too much when the students perform like shit. Maybe you didnt read my post. I would be happy to see them get paid $60,000 a year if our kids weren't turning out like they were hopping around in potato sacks in a minefield. Not to mention that the teachers get the best benefits of any other union, which I dont think they should get if they don't perform, either. No, I didn't read your post. See, I just made stuff up, because it's easier to make an argument when you just make up whatever you're replying to. It works really well like that. Anyways, the "180 day workyear" figure only makes sense if you assume that teachers work strictly 8 hours a day / 180 days a year. But any teacher will tell you that it takes a hell of a lot more than that to prepare class / grade papers / etc. There was a pretty well-known article on this topic, but I can't find it. Oh well. Anyways, it'd be nice if $45,000 was the starting salary, but it isn't. I mean, I'm sure that being a teacher is more luxurious than, say, working at McDonalds, but do we really want teachers with those qualifications? The average starting salary for someone who goes to college for 4 years is (I think) $60,000. Should we just not bother on those fancy college-educated teachers? See, once again, you don't understand: The mere fact that they know, if they misbehave, they will suffer physical pain and mental anguish (mockery is good in some cases), they won't misbehave, and they'll keep on the right path. Actually, studies have shown that physical intimidation doesn't really deter bad behavior. It works at first, but then kids acclimate. Unless you ramp up the beatings, I suppose, which is what a good parent/teacher does? If you think beating kids is effective as a learning aid... hah, you have a lot more to learn than me. But please, just for my amusement, find me some study that actually says that physical and mental damage leads to more stable and accomplished children. I'd love to see it. |
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BookReader Ninji Level: 25  Posts: 82/232 EXP: 86317 For next: 3303 Since: 03-15-04 From: Albuquerque, New Mexico (Land of Disenchantment) Since last post: 22 days Last activity: 2 days |
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| My theory is that the schools in America are just for turning kids into resources or as I wrote about six months ago to my girlfriend (at the time): I |
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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - General Chat - What do American (public) schools teach? |
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