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1 user currently in Rom Hacking:  hukka |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - Warning |
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 6873/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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How often do you make a hack and never actually modify anything in a hex editor?  Also, you forgot another definition of hack. Like the actor was a hack, or what have you. |
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Setzer Popo Level: 36  Posts: 454/532 EXP: 290182 For next: 17928 Since: 04-22-04 From: Not Florida. because I'm going to sink it. Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 48 min. |
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Originally posted by HyperHacker Are you saying that if you did a total overhaul of a game: lets say castlevania, using only YY-CHR and Stake, that wouldn't be a hack? Even if you use a program to hack a game, guess what, you're still hacking it OMG :O Just because something helps you do something doesn't mean you're not the one doing it You can't just open up a rom in an editor and it's already hacked, you do the hacking. It's still hacking. Just instead of using a hex editor, you're using an advanced hex editor with graphical notifications that edit a specific part of the hex, it's basically the same thing. |
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AP Panser Level: 22  Posts: 171/333 EXP: 56817 For next: 1533 Since: 08-07-05 Since last post: 6 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by SetzerOriginally posted by HyperHacker I don't think so. He didn't say that that wouldn't be a hack. He just said, "How often do you make a hack and never actually modify anything in a hex editor?", since hex editing was important in ROM hacking in the old times. It still is today, but it was a lot more during those times, I think. But what does this has to do with (edited by AP on 09-05-05 08:42 PM) (edited by AP on 09-05-05 08:43 PM) (edited by AP on 09-05-05 08:54 PM) (edited by AP on 09-05-05 08:54 PM) |
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ETG Tektite Level: 14 Posts: 56/60 EXP: 11348 For next: 1723 Since: 03-16-04 From: Texas Since last post: 6 days Last activity: 5 hours |
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| Using an editor doesen't make it any less of a hack. It may make one less of a hacker though. |
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Bit-Blade Pixel Artist Level: 34  Posts: 351/445 EXP: 229264 For next: 24387 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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| I disagree. Look at how the games were made again. Dev-kits and very likely level editors and music editors, you name it. Those guys more than likely had it much easier than we did. Everything except the coding must have been pretty easy. | |||
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Glyph Phoenix Level: 39  Posts: 542/745 EXP: 385876 For next: 18895 Since: 11-07-04 Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by BMF54123 Originally posted by BMF54123 So you're saying that because Fu didn't release some of his hacks, we understand SMW better? Heh heh heh no. By your logic, it's an bad thing for people to release hacks or programs because then we won't figure the stuff out for ourselves. That doesn't make a lot of sense. Or... any sense. If Fu released the pipes, then MikeyK would probably have worked on some other project. So then we'd have Fu's pipes + whatever MikeyK would have worked on. There's no loss there. Fu may have had a perfectly good reason for not releasing his scrolling pipe code. But that "we know SMW better because of it" crap isn't going to fly. |
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Setzer Popo Level: 36 Posts: 456/532 EXP: 290182 For next: 17928 Since: 04-22-04 From: Not Florida. because I'm going to sink it. Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 48 min. |
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| I love your positive attitude about figuring things out glyph. Figuring things out is what rom hacking is all about. | |||
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 6878/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| I would still consider it a hack if you didn't use a hex editor. I'm just saying it's somewhat rare that you don't. Even SMW hackers do, quite often, despite all LM's features. Editors just present the same data in an easier-to-use manner. And yes, for the most part, making the games is a lot easier than hacking them. Sure they have to do everything from scratch, but they have huge teams with like dozens of people devoted entirely to graphics, sound, level design and so on. Code? They write one game then just copy, paste, and edit the source files for others. They have official development kits where they can plug the console into a PC and dump memory, view debug readout, anything you can think of.I've made my own crappy, simple games from scratch and aside from having to make all your resources yourself, it's actually pretty easy. You know all the code and can make it do whatever you want without having to trace or hack anything. And what Glyph was saying about how "we'd know it better if we figured everything out ourselves", I agree, that's total BS. That's one of the biggest reasons that people refuse to release their information is that they're afraid that n00bs will just use it to make something and not learn. Now come on, really... who cares? If they want to learn, they can look it up and try to figure things out on their own. That's how I learned even the most basic things of hacking. I knew I could just go here and type this number and I would get unlimited lives or whatever, but I didn't, I studied and looked at why that would happen. But if someone doesn't care to learn what others already know, and just wants to make a hack, why try to stop them? Just because you don't know how the game copies its HDMA tables into memory or what have you doesn't mean you can't make a good hack. Anyone play Rob-Omb's Quest? That was a great hack, and the author didn't even know what a hex editor was. |
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KawaiiImoto-e Hammer Brother Level: 49 Posts: 1006/1068 EXP: 852917 For next: 30966 Since: 03-15-04 From: In my own little complicated dreamworld Since last post: 16 days Last activity: 4 days |
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| I think todays Romhacking developed from mere changes in graphics, some levels or behaviers, as also texthacks and translation to a, sometimes, full grown game changing development. A todays hack can't do with just altering graphics, text or some new levels, it has to do all of it, combined for a good playing experience. Tha players of the hack demand more changes, better changer, and something new. Thanks to hacks like SMW2+, Mario Adventure or Mario's Oddysey, we have reached high archievments. In Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World, members of Acmlm's Board and other hackers have allmost disasembled the hole code. Know not only where wich graphic is saved, or how the compression algorythm works, but also level and enemy data, how the engine handles inputs, effects, powerups and much more. And with such a sophisticated editor for Super Mario World, wich even Nintendo never had, it's gonna be more a question how the level is layed out, not how the level is made. |
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LocalH Red Goomba Level: 12  Posts: 33/46 EXP: 7612 For next: 309 Since: 03-17-04 Since last post: 25 days Last activity: 4 days |
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| And in the Sonic scene we have assemblable disassemblies of Sonic 1 and 2, so it seems that we're at about the same level insofar as our knowledge of the games, the difference being you guys have better editors for non-hackers (as good as SonED2 is, Lunar Magic owns it easily). A hack is a hack. If I go through some process, and a byte is modified from the original ROM, then it's a hack. Doesn't matter how useful it is, or what the process used was, if you're modifying bytes in a ROM, then you're hacking, simple as that. There are different levels of hacking (for instance, there's one guy in the Sonic scene who uses a Mac and thus does all his hacking in raw hex - that's hardcore hacking, and is exceptional and not the norm). |
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Coolman Goomba Level: 10  Posts: 29/32 EXP: 3753 For next: 661 Since: 08-29-04 From: Germany FWB Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 21 hours |
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Originally posted by HyperHacker Well, there are no longer so many German hackers. That ones I know are about 10. And the German scene isn't really active any longer. There is just one more active hack "Pokémon Midnight". Btw we don't really know much about the new Pokémon games. Most knowledge is about Gold. So the problem isn't that there are only few German hackers who speak English but there are few in general. |
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 6888/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Ah, I haven't really kept up with the Pokémon scene. Back in the G/S days, Germans practically dominated it. | |||
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Jathys Red Goomba Level: 11 Posts: 44/48 EXP: 5916 For next: 69 Since: 12-21-04 Since last post: 8 days Last activity: 8 days |
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| When you're playing a game, who in hell cares if you call it a hack, edit, modification, or whatever... A rose by any other name still smells as sweet. This thread wasn't intended to be another "Editors are for n00bz" thread. We've got too many of those already. (Let it be known that the only reason I code editors is so I won't have to edit the data on such a low level . . . I do not think in binary). The basic point is that we DO need more mods developed by groups. Two people can be a group. What tends to happen though is that a "n00b" volunteers to do the level design, since that's easy with an editor, and someone else does graphics and ASM and everything else . . . I suck at graphics; I have one main graphic person for Alliance. I suck at ASM; I'm doing 90% of my own ASM, but have people to help me when I get stuck. I get bored with level design; There's no fun for me in playing a game if I've made all the levels myself, so a few people will be doing this. In total, Alliance will be done by 4 hackers and several advisors. If it weren't for the ASM portion (I'm working on it, give me a break), it could be done already . . . But no one would want to play. Anyway, I digress. If you're a n00b, develop and then show you've got some sort of skills. Then come up with an idea. Then ask someone to offer assistance with the idea, once you've shown some initial progress. It's a three step process! |
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Setzer Popo Level: 36 Posts: 469/532 EXP: 290182 For next: 17928 Since: 04-22-04 From: Not Florida. because I'm going to sink it. Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 48 min. |
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| Lets not forgot one great hack that's been done by a team. DXOII. it so rocks. | |||
Kasper Koopa Level: 17  Posts: 106/108 EXP: 21219 For next: 3524 Since: 11-10-04 Since last post: 44 days Last activity: 44 days |
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Originally posted by AP Well this group hack could of went pretty well, it is these guys that are really stopping progress. I mean how much work can TheGreatWhiteDope do to an Acmlmboard? And Shadic just stopped. I read the thread on that board, it's only 5 levels per person. They must think that 5 levels is really hard to do. But that is just my opinion. |
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redrum Micro-Goomba Level: 6  Posts: 10/12 EXP: 875 For next: 32 Since: 08-16-04 From: forest of silence Since last post: 40 days Last activity: 37 days |
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| in my mind a hack is analogical to a piece of art no matter how the person paints the canvas. sure there are bad pieces of art, but art they are still. a group of people working on a single piece of art doesnt often turn out quite as well, compared to a single person manipulating it the way the want. this isnt always true though... anyways, i think people should be able to hack whatever damn way they wish without being criticized (besides constructive criticizm, of course  )you dont have to play something ya dont like, ya know. (edited by redrum on 09-18-05 01:55 PM) (edited by redrum on 09-18-05 01:57 PM) |
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Bit-Blade Pixel Artist Level: 34 Posts: 402/445 EXP: 229264 For next: 24387 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 7 hours |
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| Man... I really don't feel like debating about this anymore XD. It's not a matter of playing something you don't like, red. No one typically does that anyway. Cooperation in romhacking WOULD be a good thing but no... not everyone needs to compromise their singular artistic vision. I just think it's a very wise idea. Also, I think the word you wanted to use there is 'analogous' (same difference though). I still hold to the fact that no matter what, one person is almost never that good at EVERYTHING in romhacking to be able to handle that. For the most part a lot of people specialize. Now... if these specialists combined their powers, you'd get a whole (at least in a small team). If you do more than that, you get a real sort of team. Ha... this is wierd. It's not often that you disagree with me. |
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Kyoufu Kawa I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way. Level: 70  Posts: 2315/2481 EXP: 3008456 For next: 7355 Since: 03-19-04 From: Catgirl Central Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 13 hours |
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Originally posted by Bit-BladeText! Graphics! Assembler! Sound! Heart! By your powers combined I am Captain Co-op! Because this discussion needs more semi-ontopic humor. |
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Tzepish Level: 6  Posts: 5/24 EXP: 857 For next: 50 Since: 09-10-05 From: Bothell, WA Since last post: 23 days Last activity: 5 hours |
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| Disclaimer: I am not representing any company in this post. I've been ROM hacking for about eight or nine years, and I recently got a job in game design, and I'll tell you one thing that surprised me: What we ROM hackers do, even with specialized programs, is still much more difficult than what the devkits and such can do. I always wondered what it was like to make games "for real", and now I know - at work we basically use the same kinds of level editors that you find on zophar.net and other sites. That isn't to take anything away from what game designers do, however. The challenge of the job isn't in the technical difficulty of physically making the thing - it's the ideas, creativity, the design of the thing. Which is where, I think, more of an emphasis should be placed on our hacks as well. Suppose two hackers each start work on a Super Mario World hack. We'll call these two "Specter" and "Jester". Specter uses nothing but a hex-editor and a graphics editor on his hack, while Jester uses a full-blown Super Mario World editor. If Jester releases his hack first, and it's alot more fun than Specter's hack, then whose hack are we gonna' enjoy playing more? Jester had more creative vision - who cares if how he did it was "easier"? Was it "easy" designing so many fun levels? Now, I don't mean to say that we should abandon our hex-editors, or that there's no benefit to doing things by hand. But what I would definitely be in favor of is the abolishment of this notion that using level editors and such makes you less of a hacker. Make fun games -> play fun games. Use whatever tools you need to accomplish the job. |
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blackhole89 LOLSEALS Moderator of ROM hacking EmuNET IRC network admin Head GM of TwilightRO Level: 47  Posts: 909/971 EXP: 739208 For next: 26995 Since: 03-15-04 From: Dresden/Germany Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 12 hours |
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| Editing (using tools others made for you) is often of more effect to the actual quality of a hack than every piece of what you do yourself (hex/assembler hacks, whatever). Still, it is these little pieces of additional work that make a hack exclusive compared to others, and it is very painful to the ones out there doing "the real work" to see how the only-editor users are celebrated as "great ROM hackers" while the actual hackers' work is rarely accounted. (Watch the "Best ROM hacker votings" going on here now and then... 70+% of the award-takers probably don't even know to read hex, not even to mention assembler) |
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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - Warning |
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Don't mean to sound racist or anything but the proportions seem quite unbalanced.