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1 user currently in Super Mario World hacking:  labmaster |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Super Mario World hacking - Should 1ups be abandoned? |
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Glyph Phoenix Level: 39  Posts: 529/745 EXP: 385876 For next: 18895 Since: 11-07-04 Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| They worked great in one-way games like SMB. You had better watch yourself, or you'd have to start all over from world 1-1. They worked fine in SMB3, where you would have to restart from a castle -- so there's still a challenge. But now... They don't work right in SMW. They are the reward for tricky challenges, but you can just stockpile them in easy levels like Yoshi's Island 2. You can just go back and beat an easy ghost house; your progress will be saved right up to that point. But those tricks are annoying. And those who played straight through could get a game over and end up losing a lot of ground. 1ups are not the joke they are in SM64, or in any area of SMS that isn't one of those tricky pipe levels. That's a major SMW flaw, right there... Dragon Coins and Coins are kinda pointless if you can just run to whatever level and get a 3up from the sky or a 1up every time you smash a bunch of koopas. How can we give the 1up importance? Should we just give up? That's probably what I will do. Replace 1ups with Max HP or something like that in my hack. But I want to know what you guys think. How can we fix this? |
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djtristaph Red Goomba Level: 8  Posts: 34/36 EXP: 1763 For next: 424 Since: 08-27-05 From: Ontario Since last post: 34 days Last activity: 34 days |
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| I think you should still be rewarded with one ups for tricky challenges, but maybe if you throw a switch on it so they only appear the first time it is accomplished. The only other time you can get 1ups would be by coins and dragon coins. Thats something thats always bothered me about super mario games too, how easy is is to get 1ups. |
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Crysillion Micro-Goomba Level: 5 Posts: 10/16 EXP: 528 For next: 1 Since: 08-26-05 Since last post: 57 days Last activity: 55 days |
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| 1up's, in my opinion, are there for the challenging levels. You know what I'm talking about... The levels where you're constantly dying ( I'm talking about levels in hacks, not the original SMW ) and you're lucky to even make it to the Halfway marker. Well thats what they're for. If you hit the midway point, and die, and still have at least one life to spare, next time you go back to level - You start at the midway point. Where-as opposing to getting a game over, you'd have to start from the beginning of that level. Here's a stupid suggestion: Make levels uncannily long.  EDIT: On the other hand, I recall this hack where getting all the Yoshi coins meant unlocking a special part of the level. Like, theres these Yoshi blocks that block the path to a special tunnel or something. And the blocks vanish when you get all the Yoshi coins. I'd do something like this only if it wasn't considered stealing the guys idea. =( Instead of making 1up's hard to get, make Yoshi coins difficult. But yeah.. That'd be stealing the poor guy's idea. I don't even know how he did something like that in the first place. (edited by Crysillion on 09-02-05 05:21 AM) |
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Glyph Phoenix Level: 39 Posts: 531/745 EXP: 385876 For next: 18895 Since: 11-07-04 Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| 'twas a custom block included in Blocktool that allowed for Dragon Coin tunnels. And yes, that was fun. I remember that. Really, though, making 1ups rarer still doesn't solve the problem. You could remove 1ups completely and you'd still be fine going back to replay old levels, saving your game. It's the way the whole game of SMW is designed, making 1ups obsolete. I think it's the way the little green things have become a sort of mascot for Mario gameplay that makes Nintendo keep them around, not their practicality. Halfway markers are a valid point. Still, though, one half of a level isn't enough. Y'know, I bet with a little ASM one could hook the ending routine where Current Player's Lives get sent to Mario's Lives so Mario can't get 1ups in old levels. That would be pretty sweet. |
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Surlent サーレント Level: 49  Posts: 1028/1077 EXP: 863920 For next: 19963 Since: 03-15-04 From: Tower of Lezard Valeth Since last post: 16 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| Making 1UPs as valuable as Pieces of Heart from Zelda games ? Hehe, this is just the case with really scattering the Yoshi Coins in very good hideouts in a level. So you even only need not to find ONE block containing a 1UP mushroom, but you need at least FIVE Yoshi Coins - and be maybe rewareded with additional ones which grant you a 1UP again  But I think the neccessary levels should be able to played through with sufficient lives. Think about an arkwardly loooong level which is not only hard but you really have no "fast" 1UP to save yourself from dieing. If you really have to save-state to preserve your last life in every level and the green shrooms are more valuable than the combination "key + keyhole" - then something went wrong  (edited by Surlent on 09-02-05 05:45 AM) |
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asdf Cukeman Level: 28 Posts: 246/303 EXP: 128796 For next: 2542 Since: 03-16-04 Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 54 min. |
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| I only have 1-Up Bonuses from (Dragon Coins). Many have obvious locations early on, but later on they will get get tricky to reach. Sometimes you'll have to pull a trick or two off to reach them. They only respawn after restarting a saved game as well, so it isn't that bad. And don't make hacks ridiculously hard. That just pisses people off. Hell, screw the lives system. Mario Adventure (not SMW, but whatever) did it, and it turned out great. All a lives system does in ridiculously difficult games that can set you back is promote anger as well as the involentary shout out of profanities. |
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Crysillion Micro-Goomba Level: 5 Posts: 11/16 EXP: 528 For next: 1 Since: 08-26-05 Since last post: 57 days Last activity: 55 days |
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| Yes. I despise the hacks that abuse holes. I played a Hack ( Won't mention which ) that had a beach on it. The beach was mainly holes, and some sand. Wow. Not a beach I'd goto on a vacation, let me tell you. | |||
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Glyph Phoenix Level: 39 Posts: 532/745 EXP: 385876 For next: 18895 Since: 11-07-04 Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| This isn't about difficulty. Because of saves game over means much less and because of replayable old levels easy lives can be collected again. Regardless of difficulty, these problems exist. I guess the two types simply can't work together... backtracking, complex stat, save games don't work with lives while linear, simple life n' score, restart from the beginning games work fantastically with them. When your're down to the wire, a death sending you back to the beginning, a 1up is heaven. But when you pick them up 3 at a time from the local yellow splotch on the map they stop being useful. |
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Surlent サーレント Level: 49 Posts: 1030/1077 EXP: 863920 For next: 19963 Since: 03-15-04 From: Tower of Lezard Valeth Since last post: 16 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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You might "deaccess" old one-exit-only levels, Glyph, but on the other hand - as long the hack is exciting - you also lock out people from playing them; and of course levels with two had to be "ready" to reenter anyway  You can at least make it even so, that even in easy levels it really requires _time_ to pick up a 1UP mushroom; so if you have a very easy but long level and the shroom is found near the end, most players won't to do that too long - alternatively disable START + SELECT from Lunar Magic; so they HAVE to finish the level. If you anyway put not much lives into the hack, it won't may sense to play even easy levels fifty times and the player will get bored |
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Glyph Phoenix Level: 39 Posts: 533/745 EXP: 385876 For next: 18895 Since: 11-07-04 Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Ah, but take a short easy level. Start at the beginning, grab 25 coins, find a 1up in a box somewhere, end the level. Repeat 4 times and you'll have a bonus round, in which you'll get probably about 2 more 1ups, and to top it off you'll have a coin 1up. That's 7 1ups in 4 playthroughs... and if you know the level well enough, you'll find more than that. And this is all assuming you don't have start + select. That may not seem like much for 4 annoying playthroughs, but compare with one extremely hard level that you'll need all the lives you can get to complete. Even then, what about save points? You can beat that ghost house over and over and you'll never have to worry about losing your progress again. |
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 6787/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Just don't make it really easy to get 1ups. As for going back and saving in a really easy Ghost House... there's a reason that you can save anywhere in the GBA version. Because not being able to save easily sucks hard. |
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Surlent サーレント Level: 49 Posts: 1032/1077 EXP: 863920 For next: 19963 Since: 03-15-04 From: Tower of Lezard Valeth Since last post: 16 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| Or maybe hack the 1UP's ASM routine and ... add a flag or something which remembers if those blocks got already "used" or not, thus reentering makes these 1UP blocks become brown "used" ones. To make it easier, later in the game there could be set a one-time flag (like with the Switch Palaces, you can play them only once and even the L&R code shouldn't work on them) which might reset all these blocks. I really have no clue of ROM hacking, but since LM already expands a regular SMW ROM there should be space to add few pointers/flags to interfere with the 1UP block routine ... Just think about the Locked Doors and Keys in Blocktool: You have four different doors which, when once the "obtained/touched key block" flag is set, remain open - even if you go to another level on the world map. There need to be used a "reset block" which is also included - it sets the proper Locked Door back to "locked" - like placing an invisible row of tiles acting like 25 which the player has to pass. Otherwise it might be not fair - just think, you are in the last three levels, you found all (few) 1UPs but cannot pass the hard levels due to missing lives And that "reset level" might be entered only once then. Yeah, it sounds dumb, but something other than making levels-with-save-options only playable once each (d'oh  ) just is not coming into my mind, what could be done without hacking the game (edited by Surlent on 09-02-05 06:42 AM) |
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AsukaFan2K6 Banned Level: 18 Posts: 151/183 EXP: 26587 For next: 3310 Since: 07-10-05 From: Albany, NY Since last post: 52 days Last activity: 5 days |
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| I think 1-ups are pointless in SMW, Yoshi's Island, or any other game that has a save feature. They work fine in games like SMB and SMB3, though. |
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TapTap Nipper Plant Level: 24  Posts: 37/405 EXP: 68995 For next: 9130 Since: 08-22-05 From: Yoshi's Island Current Posting Mode: Spree Since last post: 7 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by AsukaFan2K6 Yeah, I agree. I have nearly no coins at all In my hacks, the only way you can get 1ups are by Yoshi Coins. I think Yoshi Coins are still okay to keep, because you can put them in hard places, and you can only get their 1Up once until you turn the game off, Game Over, etc. |
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Tweaker Red Paragoomba Level: 12 Posts: 52/57 EXP: 6490 For next: 1431 Since: 03-20-05 From: Rochester, NY Since last post: 25 days Last activity: 13 days |
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| Heh, maybe you should make it so you can only recieve a 1-up if your coin counter is an even level. If it's odd, you get a "1-down". That'd be evil. Hehehe. (edited by Tweaker on 09-02-05 02:15 PM) |
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SoNotNormal Fuzzy Level: 34  Posts: 334/793 EXP: 248340 For next: 5311 Since: 07-01-05 From: Canada, eh? Since last post: 6 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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| 1ups aren't bad, its just most people put WAAAAY too many of them in one level. That secret in Vanilla Secret 2 where you carry the P-switch back to the beginning and get like 50 1ups was just lame. Typically, now that I have an emulator, I use save states on games like Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, etc. right before a boss. But in SMW, playing new hacks, I tend to avoid it and play through it properly. If the game is very challenging, and I see a 1up, I would immediately go for it. If the game is easy, and there are waaaay too many 1ups, it's . . . . . pathetic. I agree with you GP - not 100%, but with most of it. 1ups should be at the end of a hard level as your reward, that most players wouldn't want to play again, and the ghosts houses and stuff should be challenging so that you should just wait until the next ghost house in your path. |
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Skyon Red Koopa Level: 14  Posts: 5/125 EXP: 11845 For next: 1226 Since: 08-22-05 Since last post: 32 days Last activity: 16 days |
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| I wouldn't totally give up 1-ups, but I would make them a rarity, but it all really depends on the difficulty of the hack. | |||
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Glyph Phoenix Level: 39 Posts: 534/745 EXP: 385876 For next: 18895 Since: 11-07-04 Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by Glyph Phoenix Let's say your game is hard. Let's say there's only one easy level (Hey, there should be at least one.) Let's say it's not even easy, you just manage to beat it most of the time without dying. Now, take bonus stars into account. If you're good at that game, if there are a bunch of coins, then you can make tons of 1ups. = While in the more difficult world... if you make it to the halfway point, you're lucky. Now, wouldn't you rather go through the minor level a few times and stockpile, rather than go through a more difficult level on the off chance you'll score an 'up? See, backtracking and saves defeat the purpose. 1ups in large numbers do too, but that's another thing entirely. |
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Dylan Yoshi Paragoomba Level: 11  Posts: 15/79 EXP: 5598 For next: 387 Since: 08-31-05 Since last post: 13 hours Last activity: 9 hours |
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| You could solve this problem by making it so that every level no longer has level access after completing it. But then that would take out the fun of going back and playing the levels over... |
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 6797/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by Surlent This would be really hard to implement, for 2 reasons. 1: Might not be enough SRAM space. 2: How will your code know which 1up you just got? They aren't numbered or anything. The real purpose of 1ups is to give you a bit of a break, so that if you die on some hard level you don't have to re-do every level since your last save. The only real way to prevent people from building up lives in easy levels is to prevent them from going back. Now, that doesn't mean being like SMB3 where you can't re-enter a level, but maybe making 'one-way' paths on the overworld so that once you enter a world, the only exit leads to the next world. You could use the Star World or an unused submap as a 'hub', which would instantly take you to any world, but set all its paths to be revealed once you beat the last level (or second-last, if the last level triggers the ending sequence), so that once you beat the game you can re-play any level as often as you please. (Yes, you could do away with the hub altogether, but that'd mean that if a player was in world 3 and wanted to go to world 2, they would have to go all the way around in a big circle to the last world, then to 1, then to 2. )[edit] Example of how this would work. The trick is that main path connecting all the others in the main hub - that wouldn't appear until you beat the last level. If your setup doesn't allow for the whole path to be revealed after one level, you could use a series of levels in the last world, each of which reveals part of the path, which themselves are in a one-way path that can't be left until you beat them all, which then returns to its entrance. (edited by HyperHacker on 09-02-05 06:01 PM) (edited by HyperHacker on 09-02-05 06:02 PM) |
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