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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Immigration and labor costs |
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Slay Level: 25 Posts: 290/339 EXP: 85592 For next: 4028 Since: 04-28-05 From: Threshold Between Heaven and Hell Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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The Zer0wned says... Ah, so you feel life is giving you the shaft and let one incident dictate your perspective on a very complex social issue? How do you know he was an illegal immigrant? Because he was Mexican? Maybe you live near the border? Perhaps he didn't speak English? One incident is no reason to hate an entire demographic. There are people dying of starvation, children dying of the chicken pox all around the world, and yet Russell Simmons somehow needs a diamond-encrusted toilet seat. Tell me how that's fair. But does that excuse me to hold resentment against the rich or overindulged in general, because of one percieved injustice? The Zer0wned says... That's entirely possible, I wasn't implying that the truly downtrodden never complained, only that the most vocal are the most well-off and the least qualified to complain. Maybe you personally have legitimate reasons to be angry, maybe you genuinely are getting treated unfairly. There's two solutions. 1) Legalize illegal aliens (a process that would involve teaching them to speak English, about our history and other processes that legal aliens go through) so that they can't be offered low wages any more. Then, they can't get hired because they'll work for less than you, which means you're on equal grounds, and whoever gets hired just got lucky, or was more qualified. 2) The generally more enthused yet morally questionable ideal; round 'em up and toss 'em out in old-fashioned cowboy style. I'm not discounting your personal experiences at all, I'm just saying that you and people like you are not qualified to speak on this matter because you're so emotionally involved, and even if it's sub-conscious, could be motivated by revenge, resentment and anger, and I don't think any rational person wants to go around legislating on those grounds. All the great philanthropists and charitable figures in history that I've come across have followed the same general principle which can be best summed up in a single sentance. "This is bigger than me." Think about yourself in your own life. When it comes to how to run the country, think about the greater good of all humanity. Not the good of Americans, not the good of Mexicans, not the good of the working class, not the good of the illegal aliens, the good of humanity at large. Ask not what is in your best interest, but what's the right thing to do. The Zer0wned says... I realize that I'm the odd one here, that I'm the "antagonist" of sorts when I say this, that I'm being difficult and stubborn, but I don't adhere to any concieved "rules," be they written or understood. "You gotta look out for your own." is not a philosophy I prescribe to, by any means. Why? Favoritism kills. Though, technically I do look out for my own, but I consider my own to be the human race, and even then I care about animals a lot, too. The second you put yourself above anybody else, you've lost a small bit of your humanity. That's what I think. Again, I know I'm being difficult, stubborn and idealistic, but those qualities which make people hate me are the exact same ones which make others love e. It seems I can find no middle-ground; everyone I come across - in person or online - either adores or abhors me. But that's fine by me. As far as I'm concerned, easy people are boring and difficult ones are interesting. The Ziff says... Ziff brings up a good point; if an illegal immigrant gets a job, why does his legal status automatically rule out the possibility that he's simply more qualified than someone else? Just because they're illegal immigrants doesn't make them dumb or socially inept or incompetant. It's completely possible that they're just as if not more well suited for a job than Joe American, but of course, that doesn't stop ol' Joe from complaining. That's the American Way; if you can't sue, complain. Also, just because someone is an illegal alien doesn't automatically mean they attained their job through illegal means. I heard of a family of illegal immigrants from Mexico; the mother and three sons. They all speak English just fine, the mother is a doctor and the oldest son is in community college heading down the same route. When people say "illegal immigrants are bad because they're illegal" you're including her in that group. Should we throw her out, despite her obvious personal merits, just because she's not yet a legal citizen? Tell me where the fairness is there. She's the typical illegal alien; you wouldn't know she was illegal unless you scrutinized, and she's just as constructive as a legal citizen. The cases of individuals who come into this country illegally because they're willing to work dirt-cheap are the rarity, the media just blows it out of proportion. Why? Because we're gruesome. When's the last time you heard a report about a safe driver, or a plane that landed smoothly? The media focuses on the car crashes, the plane disasters, and the genuinely unfair illegal immigrants. But are you to construe that all cars and airplanes are unsafe, just because all you ever see is crashes and death? Are you to construe that all illegal aliens are like Juan Fencehopping $1.20-an-hour, just because that's all you ever hear about on the news? The Ziff says... I'm laughing as I type this, but by any chance are you evil_eric? If not, forget I asked. Just something about the way you speak and your opinions reminds me of someone I know from another forum. Regardeless, I second your final statement. Not to go off on another tangeant, but most of American land was stole from the natives, by brutal force. They say America is founded on the ideals of freedom of speech and religion, of liberty and justice. Tell that to the millions of slaughtered natives, tell that to their descendants whose pride has been broken and live in veritable internment camps which we cutely call "reserves," tell that to the slave labor brought in from Africa that virtually built this country with blood and sweat the likes of which no modern American will ever know. The Arwon says... Ahh, you may be right, I don't know for sure. But there's a difference between Bush the man and Bush the administration. They often hold conflicting views. The Zer0wned says... If you know they're involved in illegal activity 1) why do you want to work for them and 2) why don't you report them to the athorities? The Zer0wned says... You're making brash blanket statements again. "They." It's "them vs. us" mentality. "They" work no harder or no less hard than you, huh? Can you really say that and sleep soundly at night? So confident that "they" are some faceless mass, rather than individuals with a label forced upon them? I've said it elsewhere on this board, I hate blanket statements. "Men are pigs," "Women are fickle." People use blanket statements like that, they attack groups like that when they have no legitimate argument against any individuals. But don't get me started on groups vs individuals. I'll talk your ears off. Or erm...read your...eyes out, since this is text and all. The Zer0wned says... You aren't alone, most of America agrees with you. As far as this topic is concerned, I feel safe saying that Ziff and I are just two stubborn bastards. No offense meant, Ziff. It's a compliment. The Zer0wned says... As long as it remains hydrated, the human body can last weeks with little or no food. The Zer0wned says... Now that's a legitimate question. There's obviously something wrong in Mexico with the government or public planning or something, where criminal cartels run largely unopposed and people are fleeing the country in record numbers. But the same could be said about the mob in America and the present-day record number of Americans moving to Canada (albeit legally and in no huge rush). And as long as we're talking about frustrations, do you want to know what I'm frustrated at? These trigger-happy wannabe-cowboys calling themselves the Minutemen. That name is just an absolute insult. The real minutemen were members of the colonial militia that defended themselves against oppressive British rule. Does that at all seem analogous to angry Texan vigilantes running a background check on every brown-skin they come across? The SamuraiX says... Side A says Side B doesn't know what they're talking about, Side B says Side A doesn't know what they're talking about. It's useless to the debate to simply try and discredit your opponent, rather than trying to build a legitimate case of your own accord. The SamuraiX says... Some might say that the problem itself lies in the concept of citizenship. What if there was no such thing as citizenship -- of any country? You see, what you're doing with statements like this is judging people based upon where they were born, rather than their personal merits. Judging people by circumstance - especially uncontrollable circumstance such as where one was born - instead of by their merit is reprehensible in any case in my eyes. It's right up there with sexism, racism and homophobia. The SamuraiX says... That logic doesn't quite work. See, according to you, employers go to Mexico to hire cheap labor. This is illegal. So if they're already breaking the law with their practices, why would you think that they wouldn't continue to break the law, even if a new one was passed? The SamuraiX says... And Zer0wned is enlisting as well. Yes, I seem to have forgot a large portion of people who complain endlessly about illegal immigration; those in military service, past or present (or planning for the future). It's not just suits in Washington and special interest groups that are complaining, it's Good Ol' Boys as well. Again, I admit that my opinion is very invalid on this subject, but in my opinion, those who join the armed forces in any form are veritably brainwashed. We're brainwashed enough as it is. Did you know that America is the only nation in the entire western hemisphere of the planet which regularly practices a pledge of allegience to the country in public schools? These children are forced to make a pledge that they can't possibly comprehend. And I remember what it was like in school, those who refused to recite the pledge were sent to the principals office and slapped with a disrupting the class and disobeying orders double-whammy on their permanent records. That alone is endlessly creepy to me. My priority list is this... 1) Those I personally love and care for. 2) Humanity at large. 3) Myself. I can't honestly say I respect the opinion of anyone who'd list "my country" in the top ten, eleven or fifty-three for that matter. And that's not just true of Americans, I don't hate Americans, despite what you may be thinking, I just dislike fanatic nationalists. I guess I dislike government in general, but only because governments are so involved socially with their citizens, and because they go to war in the name of their citizens. I believe the government should provide health care free of cost, humane services (ambulances, firefighters, police) and have a self-defense squad (not an army trained to seek out combat in other nations), and that's it. This would all be funded by a single simple tax, no sales tax, either. The USDA is the only other government-run outfit that I can name off the top of my head that seems legitimate to me, and that's just because Americans consume so much beef, but in the media-flooded era of twenty-four-hour news channels we live in, even without the USDA, if a company was selling tainted meat or dairy, they wouldn't last a week under media scrutiny. I want to believe that people are good by nature, and that we raise them to be bad, and therefore, humans can inherently deal with their own problems without major government interference. I suppose that makes me naive. The Thayer says... I'm on a seventeen inch, looks fine to me. In fact, I like it. Which is saying a lot; look at my blocked layout list. There are only three layouts I've come across that I haven't blocked on principle alone. Oh, four, but the fourth is a simple change of text color, no images or formatting. The Thayer says... Flawless logic. But apparently, according to the admins' general consensus, I have the most offensive and problematic layout in board history... Uhh...this next statement is directed at anyone who's reading this topic. If I'm being a bitch, just tell me outright and flatly, through PM if you have to (but mention this topic specifically). When it comes to... • Racism • Sexism • Mysoginy • Homophobia • European colonization • Immigration • Abortion • Guns ...I tend to let myself go a bit and talk to much, verging on rambling. I'll refrain from posting in this topic any more if I'm really annoying anyone -- my sig is serious, any complaint whatsoever, let me know. I honestly don't try to annoy anyone, even if it's construed as such. I'm just expressing my opinion, same as Zer0wned or SamuraiX, but apparently certain people don't like the manner in which I express my opinion, and a lot of what I say gets construed as flaming. I dunno, just let me know if I'm disturbing the topic, I'll stop posting. All you have to do is ask. |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35  Posts: 453/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| Well, Slay, I read it in the Economist, so it must be true. They seem to theink on this issue Bush's beliefs *are* at odds with the majority of his party, and probbly his constituents, so he tends to let it slide. Unfortunately, the entire situation is poison and thus you get the continuing suffering of desperate and exploited people in an unjust economic sitution, and the militaristic idiocy of groups like the Minutemen in Arizona. |
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Zer0wned Cheep-cheep Level: 17  Posts: 68/181 EXP: 21472 For next: 3271 Since: 08-16-05 From: Hermosa Beach, CA Since last post: 30 days Last activity: 30 days |
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Uh Slay, for the record the last four samuraix quotes you made were from him quoting my first post. So yeah, he's not joining the coast guard, still just me  .While I'm addressing you, Slay, I think it'd be good for me to point out that there's a side of me that totally agrees with you. But being stubborn and idealistic never worked for me, perhaps it's served you better. Because my ideal involves a unified, athiestic (real word?) worldwide democracy, where everyone who decided to vote had to attend a mandatory class first, and take a test showing they know what the hell they're voting for, and not just who's the most popular (leaves room for bias in the educating, but hey, I'm being idealistic here  ). Presidential campaigns would be OUTLAWED, because they're a waste of fucking money! People would make decisions based on what they know, not at how easily swayed by mudslinging they are. Oh, and there'd be another step in vetoing/passing laws, the people (sticking to the educated part, but more like a review )!Then something about (nonviolent) population control, but I think I've already established how unrealistic and "not gonna happen" my ideals are (probably riddled with flaws anyway if by some crazy chance it were implemented). |
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Thayer Fuzz Ball Level: 38  Posts: 274/988 EXP: 349428 For next: 21019 Since: 06-28-05 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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Originally posted by SlayThe Thayer says... If I don't give SamuraiX the opposite of what he wants, someone will sneak up behind me with a large stick. And I really don't want that.  (edited by Thayer on 09-06-05 12:35 PM) (edited by Thayer on 09-06-05 12:35 PM) (edited by Thayer on 09-06-05 12:35 PM) |
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Slay Level: 25 Posts: 295/339 EXP: 85592 For next: 4028 Since: 04-28-05 From: Threshold Between Heaven and Hell Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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The Zer0wned says... His posting style is a bit confusing, since he doesn't apparently italisize or blockquote phrases he's quoting from other people. I was thrown off when he seemed to be in favor of illegal immigration one minute and against it the next, but let it slide because in the end, I'm arguing against the words that were said, not who said them. The Zer0wned says... In my ideal world, everyone can live exactly how they want to. If you want to watch TV all day and never do anything with your life, if you want to travel the world painting landscapes, if you want to settle down and have a family, if you want to be a big important business executive, everything you want you get. Of course, then the conflict arises that what if one person wants something that interferes with someone else's desires? What if a stalker wants to be with the person he obsesses over, but she doesn't want to be with him? But then again, this is called an ideal, and not a realistic hope for the near future. I don't think a purely atheistic society would be the least bit better than a purely religious society. See, that's the problem, and I'm sure you meant no harm, but everyone seems to think that they know how the country should be run, and it usually consists of imposing their views on everybody else. That's why the ideal world to me is one where everyone gets to live exactly how they want to, that's why I never claim to be "right" except about concrete, factual matters (such as 2.0 repeating + 2.0 repeating equals 4.0 repeating). I think everything is up to a matter of opinion and personal view. That's why I never use the word "morality." Morality is flexible, it has no clear definition, it's up to the individual to decide for themselves what is and isn't moral, and even then they have to decide whether to do moral or immoral things. For example, most people would agree that it's immoral to kill, wouldn't you say so? But at the same time, many people support wars, and they also feel they have the right to kill someone who's already killed. My percieved stubbornness and illogic stems from the fact that I have my own personal ideals and code of conduct that I rigidly adhere to. I don't care what other people percieve as moral, immoral, legal, illegal, right, wrong, because those are all just words. I do whatever I want to do, and deal with the consequences as they come (don't get me started on responsibility). I do what I believe is best for me to do, and say things even when they might hurt, but I'm consistant. Sometimes I feel like I don't belong in this generation, that my ideas are ahead of my time, but then I think, MLK's ideas were far ahead of his time. What if he'd just quit, simply because his dream seemed unattainable? So I'll do my best, and hope for others to do the same. The Thayer says... I'm sitting here, laughing, trying to come up with a reason you had to edit that little blurb three times. |
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Thayer Fuzz Ball Level: 38 Posts: 363/988 EXP: 349428 For next: 21019 Since: 06-28-05 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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Originally posted by Slay Don't laugh, I decided to be sensitive and I was merely retracting some things... |
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Zer0wned Cheep-cheep Level: 17 Posts: 69/181 EXP: 21472 For next: 3271 Since: 08-16-05 From: Hermosa Beach, CA Since last post: 30 days Last activity: 30 days |
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Originally posted by Zer0wned ... You attacked my pointless, established as un thought-out thought. How... equally pointless . |
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Slay Level: 25 Posts: 299/339 EXP: 85592 For next: 4028 Since: 04-28-05 From: Threshold Between Heaven and Hell Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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The Thayer says... I suppose I'm the only one who uses Preview with any sort of fervor. After I'm done typing a message, I hit Preview and reread the entire thing, then make changes I see necessary, press Preview again and repeat until I feel my post is ready for others to see. I'd say I spend as much time previewing and editing as I do actually writing. I do this on other message boards, as well, I hate editing, I'd rather do things right the first time. But maybe that's just me. -- Slay, Master of the Preview Button |
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Thayer Fuzz Ball Level: 38 Posts: 394/988 EXP: 349428 For next: 21019 Since: 06-28-05 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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Originally posted by SlayThe Thayer says... I use preview for large posts and those where I'm using HTML that might cause problems. I decided to change what I wrote. That's the purpose of Edit. Accept it, quit being a douche, and move on. |
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SamuraiX Paratroopa Level: 19 Posts: 12/140 EXP: 32602 For next: 3175 Since: 10-11-04 From: ^___^ Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by ThayerOriginally posted by Slay I would think it was bad spelling. What is with you and opposites? And on the majority of immigrants, dont use googlefight as the decider of that matter. Also, read this Immigrants Aliens admitted for legal permanent residence in the United States. -http://factfinder.census.gov/home/en/epss/glossary_i.html So really, illegal immigrants cannot exist. There are, however, people living in the U.S. illegally. (edited by SamuraiX on 09-07-05 06:40 PM) |
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Thayer Fuzz Ball Level: 38 Posts: 446/988 EXP: 349428 For next: 21019 Since: 06-28-05 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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Originally posted by SamuraiXOriginally posted by ThayerOriginally posted by Slay My spelling is rarely flawed, SamuraiX. Be thankful, I cut away some of my writing in order to be kind. This kindness won't be repeated if you keep up this. |
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