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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Immigration and labor costs |
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Zer0wned Cheep-cheep Level: 17  Posts: 38/181 EXP: 21472 For next: 3271 Since: 08-16-05 From: Hermosa Beach, CA Since last post: 30 days Last activity: 30 days |
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| (I should specify that I'm referring more specifically to the California-Mexico relationship) I checked to see if this was already done, and I don't think anything covered this specifically. Now, the only type of immigration I have any issue with is illegal immigration. I've found that people who are pro-illegal immigration don't really know what goes on, the real effects on unemployment, and the unfair competition that goes on. When I say unfair competition, I mean the fact that no American citizens have the ability nor opportunity to compete and offer to work for a lower wage than the immigrated competition. Employers GO TO MEXICO, find people that are willing to work for these much lower wages (under min. wage low, because that low wage is still worth quite a bit more there than it is here, making working for such low wages not nearly as bad of a thing), and ship them over here. These jobs ARE in demand to some point, American people WILL do these jobs, so "they're shitty jobs anyway" isn't a valid arguement. I hate seeing illegal practices like this being supported as if it's America's duty to do this! Even though the idea of it is helping people, it's hurting citizens. When there are two equal people, and a country has to choose one to support, it's downright wrong to not choose its own citizen in such a position. For each illegal immigrant that prevents a citizen from getting a job, two losses are made: the welfare that the unemployed individual now receives, and the taxes that the illegal doesn't pay. Low paying jobs provide two things that would normally allow a person to become more hireable individual: work experience, and money for an education. My opinion on the fairest, and possibly most effective fix for this is to enforce minimum wage, and tax deductions from wages (this means putting pressure on employers), thusly eliminating the unfair competition, as well as incentive to hire illegals in the first place. This is only really my response to people that think NOTHING should be done about immigration, and that hell, it's a GOOD thing. I don't know about the current ability on doing this, or even what priority this really takes over anything else. I was just thinking about it because I'm going into the Coast Guard in the next few weeks, immigration prevention is actually listed in the job description  . That and there was something on the news just now. |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35  Posts: 430/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| Normalise the situation, since its an intractable solution you might as well make it work the best you can. By offering work permits and visas to these people, you bring them inside the law, inside the system, which will help to enforce civilised wage standards (well, inasmuch as California's minimum wage is "civilised" ...but America's "working poor" phenomenon is another topic altogether) and stop exploitation and so forth. It's the fear of the Law, the incredibly weak bargaining position, that makes them work in such crappy conditions. If, because of work visas and more open border flows, the people aren't afraid of the border patrol and immigration police, they're more likely to come and go as they please, and far less likely to take abusive conditions as is presently the case. This can only have an upwards affect on wages. This will probably also have the effects of enabling more economic development on the other side of the border - contrary to popular belief, most people in the world don't necessarily want to move to America even if it's so full of money. By letting people return home, and send money home, without fear of being arrested, being cut off from their jobs, etc etc, you'll see more money returning to Mexico which can only be a good thing for the standard of living there. Normalising the situation is the best solution here. (edited by Arwon on 08-27-05 04:30 AM) |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99  Posts: 5208/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Actually, I saw this on Lou Dobbs. Many illegal immigrants DO pay taxes :o |
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The SomerZ Summer, yay! Level: 45  Posts: 816/862 EXP: 618182 For next: 41982 Since: 03-15-04 From: Norway Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 3 hours |
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| Arwon's kinda describing the situation in Norway. We have many people from the Baltic states, Poland, and other former east-bloc countries coming here for the summer, taking menial jobs, living on sustenance, and then going home with enough money to live really well for a really long time. I read about these Latvians in the newspaper who were working for 45kr/hour (7USD/hour) during the summertime here, and acording to them, they made as much as the President of Latvia. Of course, there are downsides. There have been incidences of doctors going from Poland to Norway to work as cleaning helps, and such. It's not positive for Poland to lose citizens with high education, and it's not positive for Norway to accept well-educated citizens only to offer them poor jobs. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 5209/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Yes, that is a major problem. I remember a time when the gentleman who manned my Subway displayed his doctorate certificate from the University of New Delhi (or some other major university in India). He said in Canada he had to work to make money to be able to be recertified as a doctor. Absolutely stupid, if you ask me. | |||
Edea Red Goomba Level: 8 Posts: 13/36 EXP: 1824 For next: 363 Since: 08-23-05 Since last post: 11 days Last activity: 11 days |
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| Governments in a capitalist system who decide to encourage immigration employment are laboring under the delusion that, since the cost of manufacture or service went doen due to wage decreases, the products in question will be offered at a cheaper price as long as competition is present. That sounds like decent economics, but major industry colludes terribly so the 'in' people maximize profit, so no one actually wins besides the pig-headed CEOs. That's what I suspect, at least, no actual evidence to back it up save that the immigrant's being here isn't helping our unemployment rate the way U.S. government says it will... | |||
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Arwon Zora Level: 35 Posts: 431/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| Don't forget, immigrants add a tax-base and consumption to an economy, too. They're not just a burden. Besides, what's that stuff about the tired and poor and he huddled masses? Bah, I shouldn't get too snotty, America's immigration policies, the untenability of the iron curtain with Mexico excepted, are far more enlightened and humane than Australia's. (edited by Arwon on 08-27-05 09:01 PM) (edited by Arwon on 08-27-05 09:04 PM) (edited by Arwon on 08-27-05 09:05 PM) |
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Slay Level: 25 Posts: 289/339 EXP: 85592 For next: 4028 Since: 04-28-05 From: Threshold Between Heaven and Hell Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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| I'm one of those psychos that has no problem with illegal immigration, aside from the fact that some of it is used to smuggle drugs and partake in other criminal activity. You complain that Americans are denied jobs because there's cheaper, immigrant labor available. Before we even expand on that, let us realise a dynamic here. American life is taken as more valuable than any other life, which I personally find reprehensible. These people live in slums, their children are hungry, the entire family recieves lax if any medical care. Until your children are starving, malnourished and in desperate need of medical care, you've no right to complain, in my eyes. Another fact that rises to my attention is that "poor" conditions in America are often desirable or even luxurious conditions compared to that seen in other countries. It also seems to me that many of the most vocal against illegal immigration (Lou Dobbs, Bill O'Reilly, President Bush) are also the most affluent. I've never seen or even heard anecdotal reference to someone who was actually living in poverty or even homeless complaining about illegal immigration, it seems to me the only ones complaining are frustrated that they pay two dollars extra in tax, and see that as some unforgivable insult and crime against all Americans. And not to play the race card, but I've only ever seen (in person as well as television and through the internet) non-minorities doing the complaining. I also find such phrases as, "You have to be stupid to ignore this problem." "It's unpatriotic to support illegal immigration." and "We as Americans must stand against this threat." to be insulting to a large portion of the US population. I find it quite immature when these individuals (none in this topic, I'm talking about Dobbs and his constituents) feel they somehow have the power to speak for all Americans, when they - like all people - can only truly speak for themselves. In short, this recent media focus on illegal immigration is much ado about nothing. It seems to me that every generation, at some point, uses immigration as a scape goat. "Blame it on the other guy" philosophy at it's finest. Or worst. |
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Zer0wned Cheep-cheep Level: 17 Posts: 57/181 EXP: 21472 For next: 3271 Since: 08-16-05 From: Hermosa Beach, CA Since last post: 30 days Last activity: 30 days |
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| The only reason I feel entitled to complain about this is I was a victim of this, people hired immigrants over me because it was cheaper, and up until very recently, I was malnourished, and I was in need of insurance or any form of medical security, and if I had gotten sick, I damned well wouldn't have gotten treated. I'm all for humanitarian interests, but when I see an illegal with a fat (AKA fed) gut and a Toyota go by, while I'm waiting for the bus, weak because in the last two weeks I'd lost over 15 pounds because I'd had little else to eat besides two small servings of rice a day, I tend to feel as though what's happening shouldn't. Added to that, there are people in my position, and they are just as outraged as I am losing a potential job to someone not even legally entitled to work in the country. I think the only reason you don't think the poverty stricken/homeless complain much about it is because their voices don't get heard, and when they do get heard, they're too busy bitching about what the government isn't giving them for nothing. As for value of life, it's kind of a rule to show some kind of bias towards your own people over others. No, it's not fair, and it's not right, but that's the basis of government, to be self-serving towards its own people, and maybe offer aid to non-citizens who are in need if they can, but by no means is it their duty. If you want to help everyone, take over the world, it's the only way it can really work. Reason I'm not bitching avidly anymore is because I'm now eligible for military service, I'll be in the coast guard next week (irony?  ) |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 5259/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Yeah, that's happened to me too. A Puerto-Rican immigrant took my job at McDonalds. Everyone knew he wasn't legal. Simple fact was he was a better worker and wouldn't complain about minimum wage. Guess what I've had to do... Work harder for less. Basically, it creates a problem. "Legals" as you call them are whiney and fat leeches on society. "Illegals" work harder than you and will work for less. Plain and simple. Zer0wned. I'm a povery advocate. I work my ass off nearly constantly working for the poor. They're harder workers and in more desperate situations than you can imagine. One girl I've worked with was eating approx. 1 granola bar every two days because she had kids to feed. She worked for below minimum wage as a sticher at a sweatshop. She NEVER complained about not getting more for nothing. That's bullshit that is spouted by morons. When they get heard, they're dead. Plain and simple. Oh, and NAFTA TECHNICALLY gives us the ability to switch between Mexico, Canada and USA as open workers freely. In practise it doesn't work that way, but that's the theory. Mind you, I think this whole "Americans who have been here for 20 years = legals because they're Europeans not Mexicans" idea is bullplop. I've always thought of whites as illegal immigrants. But whatever. |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35 Posts: 449/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| Slay, I think Presidente Bush is actually in the "normalise the situation" camp... the Republicanss are riven by a heated divide between the KICK THEM OUT and the Normalisation camps, I think the libertarian pragmatist camp is the minority and so Bush isn't too vocal about his views. (edited by Arwon on 09-04-05 10:00 AM) |
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Zer0wned Cheep-cheep Level: 17 Posts: 59/181 EXP: 21472 For next: 3271 Since: 08-16-05 From: Hermosa Beach, CA Since last post: 30 days Last activity: 30 days |
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Originally posted by alte Hexe Your first point: Did that actually happen? or is that hypothetical? Because to this day I've yet to hear about anyone pleading with an employer that they'll work for less and land the job because of it. Hell, I've tried that, they just laugh at you and say they can't do that. Your second point: no! it's not just that simple!! Like I said in my first post, there's no opportunity to jump in and say "hey, I'll work for 50 cents an hour less than that guy". But for employers, it's an assumed fact that illegals will work for minimum wage or less, so if you don't have a workplace that keeps its hiring strictly legal, you have the fact looming over your head that they may very well bring someone in to work for significantly less than you. As for the generalized accusation that they work harder than me, I'm going to let that slide. I've worked with them before, they work no more, no less harder than anyone I wouldn't consider lazy. Maybe I just work harder than the average person, but "works hard, will work for minimum wage" is nothing compared to "will work for less than minimum wage, can't unionize against you, and unlikely to ask for a raise," You can't offer that as an American, and goddammit, why am I alone in saying that you shouldn't have to!?. That lady who eats a granola bar every other day? A granola bar costs like a $1.00-$.33, rice costs under 3 cents a serving (if you get the $10 50 LB bag), and is better for you. And going off the record, I think she's exagerrating, I highly doubt that it would provide enough calories to live off of for 48 hours. If I'm giving the impression that I'm frustrated at the people themselves, I'm not. They're trying to feed and house their families and themselves, I'd damned well do whatever it took in the same position. What I am frustrated at is what the hell is being fucked up so badly in the mexican government that their citizens come here and work for so little, so willingly. I'm also frustrated at the businesses that never give Poor Guy Joe the chance to compete against $5 An Hour Jose. Maybe it's just Los Angeles. My main frustration is at the people who say "just deal with it, they're people too, and they're better than you anyway because they're in need and you're not. If you need a job so badly, why don't you just work for less than minimum wage? Because it's not that hard to live off of that much when a studio apt costs $650 a month," Said of course by the same white collar group that complains about immigration and doesn't know what the hell they're talking about either. What's going on in my eyes, is people are addressing the leaves and stems of a weed, and not the actual root. Something needs to be done in Mexico that will make working in the US instead of Mexico the same small difference between working in Canada instead of the US. I have little doubt that there's something of value there, or at least the means to become more self-sustaining. But seriously, I'm curious, who's f***ing what up so badly over there? |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35 Posts: 450/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| It's a poor country (well, more accurately, a highly unequal one - 20% of the population earn 55% of the income), it's very dependent on the US economy, and America has more employment opportunities and much higher wages, and much better employment prospects for the educated (whether the US actually recognises Mexican qualificiations at all is a different issue, of course). Plus it's right next door. It's an old story of economic disparities and it's and hardly unique to the US-Mexican border. Short of building an iron curtain you're not going to stop people coming. The best solution is work visas and genuine freedom of movement, and proactive education and enforcement of their rights, so the immigrant labourers are in a stronger bargaining position and don't get exploited. Then everyone wins. (edited by Arwon on 09-05-05 02:31 AM) (edited by Arwon on 09-05-05 02:33 AM) |
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SamuraiX Paratroopa Level: 19 Posts: 4/140 EXP: 32602 For next: 3175 Since: 10-11-04 From: ^___^ Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by Zer0wned The fact you have the leisure to be talking of this means a couple things: 1. You have a computer, or easy access to one. 2. You probably don't have to do the type of work they do. 3. If you live in California or somewhere near, you are probably eating the food that they grew (but didn't get paid near that price tag you see at the supermarket). And now for my reasons why your argument has many, many holes: 4. On taxes, heh, you should be worried about the rich ruling class of the USoA. Tax cuts for them means you(and your offspring, and their offspring, e.g.) have to foot the bill. Pork barreling, anyone? 5. Employers will just keep giving jobs overseas, also meaning less jobs to U.S. citizens. (Skilled labour as well, don't think that the rest of the world is deaf and dumb.) 6. Don't assume that they are eating what you are, there are plenty of "ethnic markets", for lack of better term. 7. Poverty is simple to solve, but greed gets in the way of this. Do you really think illegal workers are getting 5$ an hour? Some still get paid with mainly food and lodging. 8. Again, if you are wondering why your paycheck is so low, look up, not down. The upper class is pocketing your money, not the illegal immigrants. 9. Life isn't fair, people are corrupt.  And about what you said about not having enough to eat? You could(/can?) 1. Swallow your pride, soup kitchens are numerous, as well as food stamps for legal citizens 2. Don't shop at supermarkets, everything there is overpriced. Don't think I don't understand, "that illegal immigrant across the street" that does "landscaping" has a brand new car and a bigger house than the rented one I (that am dying at an early age in) live in. Go figure. It is corruption, it happens, but not as much as you think. (edited by SamuraiX on 09-05-05 04:34 AM) (edited by SamuraiX on 09-05-05 04:40 AM) |
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Thayer Fuzz Ball Level: 38  Posts: 195/988 EXP: 349428 For next: 21019 Since: 06-28-05 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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Originally posted by SamuraiX I bet that immigrant across the street has a post layout that is less annoying. Srsly. I'm sure it's fantastic on 800 x 600, but for anyone with a higher monitor resolution, it's annoyingly small. (edited by Thayer on 09-05-05 07:30 AM) (edited by Thayer on 09-05-05 07:32 AM) |
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Zer0wned Cheep-cheep Level: 17 Posts: 60/181 EXP: 21472 For next: 3271 Since: 08-16-05 From: Hermosa Beach, CA Since last post: 30 days Last activity: 30 days |
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Originally posted by SamuraiX 1. I had money at some point, lost my job and couldn't get another one for some ~strange~ reason. I had to sell some of my stuff, move into my uncle's old office, and join the coast guard in order to not be completely screwed. 2.  you know, they don't ALL pick fruit4. Never said it was a significant loss. 5. There are too many jobs that wouldn't be cost effective to do so with. I think factory work is pretty much already covered in that department anyway (made in china, wewt) 6. O_o.. when was this ever brought up...? 8. that too 9. Well shya, but it's supposedly the basis of the US for people to have some kind of power to counter that corruption to a point.
1. Soup kitchens? Like they'd let a healthy young guy like myself partake of the less fortunate's food. As for supermarkets, I agree, when I was in my downtime I bought rice in bulk, my meals were roughly 3 cents each. Food stamps, right. That'll bring aaallll kinds of custody issues up, then I would have just lost all of my independance right there , I wasn't eligible at the time anyway, I don't think.2. see #1 |
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SamuraiX Paratroopa Level: 19 Posts: 6/140 EXP: 32602 For next: 3175 Since: 10-11-04 From: ^___^ Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Make biryani? But good luck with your job, and thanks for not just sayings something alike to: smaurix ares dum imigrants arnt americn die dsmairiX |
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Thayer Fuzz Ball Level: 38 Posts: 220/988 EXP: 349428 For next: 21019 Since: 06-28-05 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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Originally posted by SamuraiX 1. SamuraiX is dumb. 2. Immigrants usually aren't Americans, at least not until they have gotten their American citizenship, and then they are indeed Americans. 3. Die SamuraiX. Are you happy now? |
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Zer0wned Cheep-cheep Level: 17 Posts: 62/181 EXP: 21472 For next: 3271 Since: 08-16-05 From: Hermosa Beach, CA Since last post: 30 days Last activity: 30 days |
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| and thanks for not just sayings something alike to smaurix ares dum imigrants arnt americn die dsmairiX That "just" gives the statement a slightly different meaning. He was just glad that "Immigrants aren't americans" wasn't my sole arguement. I guess if you want him to die, that's between you and him . |
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Thayer Fuzz Ball Level: 38 Posts: 254/988 EXP: 349428 For next: 21019 Since: 06-28-05 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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| I was just trying to make his life better by giving him the opposite of what he wanted. |
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