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| 0 user currently in World Affairs / Debate. |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - August 6th, 1945 |
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Slay Level: 25 Posts: 261/339 EXP: 85592 For next: 4028 Since: 04-28-05 From: Threshold Between Heaven and Hell Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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The Rear Admiral Grey says... Exactly. Regardeless of varying opinions, in other words, "If you disagree with me, you're wrong." You can spin it anyway you want, those are the words that were spoken. I was simply expressing discontent at this, because it's the viewpoint causing the most damage right now. President Bush refuses to listen to anyone but his yes-men, he regards his opposition as a group to be ignored. I believe that all great world leaders as far back as history has told us have listened to both sides and often ruled against their own intuitions and personal feelings in favor of what's best for the nation. Conversely, I believe that all of the worst leaders in history have ignored advisors in favor of rulling by their own will and judgement alone. The Cardinal Fang says... Ahh, I wasn't aware that "arguing semantics" was against the rules. I suppose I'll have to re-read the FAQ, I'm sure it's there somewhere. The Cardinal Fang says... That biography offers no outside sources or references, so it's not the most credible site you could refer to. Just wanted to point that out. And actually, if I understood correctly, according to a History Channel program that was on just a few days ago, in the weeks prior to August 6th, it was Hirohito who refused to surrender, and most of the rest of the Japanese government leaders who argued against him. I believe a cou was attempted against him, but failed. I could be wrong, though, I might have misheard. |
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Cymoro PATRICK DUFFY WILL LASER YOUR SOUL   Level: 67  Posts: 2000/2216 EXP: 2549743 For next: 43129 Since: 03-15-04 From: Cymoro Gaming Since last post: 6 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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Originally posted by SlayThe Cardinal Fang says... Oh, it's not in the rules. However, I have to use my best judgement when people are starting arguments about semantics in serious debates. It's like invoking Godwin's law. Originally posted by SlayThe Cardinal Fang says... Either way, it shows that they weren't willing to give up. Also, the Wikipedia article says that Hirohito was actually a bit of both, wanting peace, but still having a strong military effort. |
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Slay Level: 25 Posts: 264/339 EXP: 85592 For next: 4028 Since: 04-28-05 From: Threshold Between Heaven and Hell Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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The Cardinal Fang says... It seems that you're arguing the fact that the Japanese government and military posed a major threat that needed to be eliminated. Nobody is arguing against that fact, nobody is saying that the Japanese military wasn't dangerous or that the government wasn't harmful to it's citizens and to abroad. This seems to happen every single time I mention Hiroshima or Nagasaki; people begin to argue that the Japanese were dangerous and horrible, etc. etc. Nobody is saying that WW2-era Japan didn't pose a threat, I am simply saying that the best course of action in order to eliminate this threat was not to nuke hundreds of thousands of civilians. |
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Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101  Posts: 5022/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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| Hmmm, well, there's both good points for both sides really and we can probably argue on this subject until the end of time. I think most of us can agree that Truman had one of the toughest decisions any man had to make and I'm sure as hell glad I didn't have to make it. | |||
ClockExplosion Red Goomba Level: 10  Posts: 44/46 EXP: 3573 For next: 841 Since: 06-24-05 From: Fort Worth, Tejas Since last post: 78 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| It is my opinion that the Nuke killed two birds with one stone - it got rid of the Pacific conflict, and it was a warning not to to fuck with us. Without it, who knows where we'd be. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99  Posts: 5076/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| We'd have a lot less of a mess in world politics and a lot less blood on our hands? | |||
Shadow Red Red Koopa Level: 15  Posts: 48/133 EXP: 13999 For next: 2385 Since: 08-11-05 Since last post: 72 days Last activity: 71 days |
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| Maybe we'd have less blood on our hands. We'd just have more of our own blood spilled. You really want to trust someone who has been one of the hardest enemys to battle? Please, we were trying to save our more of our own lives. Ever think the Japanese would have hesitated to drop a nuclear bomb on us? How about the abuse the prisoners of war received? Lets not belittle the fact that prisoners were starved, sexually abused, made to do labor, and mutilated. They were a BITTER enemy, when Japanese troops surendered we shot them. You know wanna know why? Because when we went in to get them they would pull the pin on their grenade. Japense civilians had everything from machine guns to arming their 8 year olds with bamboo sticks along the coast for when the American troops were coming. You know how long it would have took? The American cost? The Japanese cost? Alot fucking more. The government may have wanted a surrender, the PEOPLE did not. They wouldnt listen to anyone except the emperor. He either had to let his people down, or continue them being slaughtered. Think about it If your spirtual you may call the Nuclear Bomb karma. (edited by Shadow Red on 08-15-05 10:30 PM) |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 5079/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Have you read the thread? | |||
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Shadow Red Red Koopa Level: 15 Posts: 51/133 EXP: 13999 For next: 2385 Since: 08-11-05 Since last post: 72 days Last activity: 71 days |
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| Yes, I know all this has been talked about but not to much extent on the thread. By the way do you really think world politics would be less of a mess if we hadnt dropped the nukes? If you referring to the spread of nuclear missles and how many nations are armed that was going to happen anyways. (edited by Shadow Red on 08-15-05 10:57 PM) |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 5082/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Actually, if it was relegated to "neato science" which it was being fast-tracked to do prior to the proof that it was super effective. But no, I meant in regards to the modern power structure. There is a bunch of spin-offs. Actually, you'd be surprised. Men and women I have spoken to that were in Tokyo at the time (the heart of the Tojo support) hated it. The war killed their brothers and sisters. Mothers and fathers. Sons and daughters. It was pure brutality to them, and not everyone was engrossed in the militancy of Japanese culture at the time. In fact, a sizeable portion was quite against it. And more were ambivalent. Still, you're being very disrespectful towards the Japanese in this thread and the statement "If your spirtual you may call the Nuclear Bomb karma." is absolutely disgusting. I'm going to ask you to retract that statement. |
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Shadow Red Red Koopa Level: 15 Posts: 53/133 EXP: 13999 For next: 2385 Since: 08-11-05 Since last post: 72 days Last activity: 71 days |
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| War is pure brutality, exactly why so many people are against it. I dont support nukeing nations like many closed minded people still do. You dont have to go to Tokyo to see people who have lost loved ones to war, nuke or not its the same theyre still gone. All im saying is given the circumstances of the time, it was the safest thing to do. I mean it did end the war and probably saved for lives then it took. I'll take back the statement, but atleast acknowledge alot of crimes were commited onto American soldiers. Crimes that they're was no excuse for. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 5084/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Yeah. I know people that served in Japan during the assault on Hong Kong. People that were in the Winnipeg Granadiers and the Canadian Rifles Regiment. You want to know who suffered? Imagine 4 or 5 years in the Japanese camps. I know my history, and if you think that I'm condoning the actions of the Japanese, then you're dead wrong. But the fact of the matter is that prior to Hiroshima America and the Allies had all the ability in the world to cast out diplomatic lines to the Japanese government. |
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Shadow Red Red Koopa Level: 15 Posts: 54/133 EXP: 13999 For next: 2385 Since: 08-11-05 Since last post: 72 days Last activity: 71 days |
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| Even so, it would have been a mess. Too many opposeing opinions with some wanting to continue military action and others wanting peace. In the end the useage of the nuclear missles and the threat to use more (we threatend to continue useing them even though we had none left) was what actually brought them together. |
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Slay Level: 25 Posts: 268/339 EXP: 85592 For next: 4028 Since: 04-28-05 From: Threshold Between Heaven and Hell Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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| Red, you're still just arguing that the Japanese were a threat, and I must repeat that nobody is arguing against that, and nobody is insisting that the only alternative to nuking Hiroshima was a full-scale land invasion. Your bringing up that issue isn't destroying the credibility of those opposed to the nuking at all. They needed to be stopped, we all agree upon that, and repeatedly bringing up the terrible things they did to POWs and such isn't helping this debate. The question isn't whether the Japanese had to be stopped, it's if and how we could have done it without killing so many civilians. I'm curious to see someone come up with an idea as to how we could have demonstrated our power or even crippled the Japanese military, without mudering such a huge number of civilians in the process. Where could we have bombed? What could we have bombed? What else could have been done? | |||
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Mel (USER WAS TOTALLY AWESOME FOR THIS POST) Level: 47  Posts: 964/991 EXP: 762490 For next: 3713 Since: 03-15-04 From: secure tripcodes are for jerks Since last post: 17 min. Last activity: 16 min. |
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| Here's adding fuel to the fire. Did you know that one of the alternatives that was avalible for Truman and his cabinet was to test the bomb on a remote, uninhabited Japanese island to make the Japanese wet their pants and surrender? (Selective Recoverative Memory, baby.) |
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geeogree Bloober Level: 34  Posts: 396/448 EXP: 231583 For next: 22068 Since: 03-16-04 From: Calgary, Canada Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 11 hours |
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| would that have worked? sure, it would have looked scary.... but the impending invasion was probably scary too.... and back in those days you could drop a bomb on an island, but there wasn't really any way to show the japanese that the bomb had dropped... I just don't think it would have worked considering they had to drop 2 to get Japan to surrender.... |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 5096/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| They didn't... After the first one was dropped the Japanese were basically thrown into such turmoil that the government might as well have been in a state of perpetual coupes. Also, the Japanese Navy was gone. The Japanese air force only had a limited fleet of Kamikazi Zero aircraft left. After that, they had the ground forces. A bombing campaign on the external military command (cities like Kyoto and Osaka) would've forced Tokyo to capitulate. Tokyo couldn't have been touched in another fire bomb raid without enciting the Japanese into a further fervor (by the time the war rolled around and the Phillipines, China, etc. was lost the Japanese morale dropped dramatically). I'm not proposing that repeating Dresden over Japan, I'm proposing a limited assault on these cities. And geeogree, they could've dropped the bombs on uninhabitated or a deserted or minimally populated area to show the actual power. Dropped it on somewhere that was visible, but not in use. If you saw a gigantic plume coming up over a mountain and then the military goes to investigate. "Shit, how many more of these things do they have? If they can effectively waste it on an uninhabitated area...Shit" |
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Bio Buster Beetle Level: 27  Posts: 98/458 EXP: 107144 For next: 9015 Since: 07-06-05 From: a laboratory somewhere... Waiting to be completed Since last post: 8 hours Last activity: 5 hours |
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Nuclear bomb there nothing when compared to H-bomb,H-bomb Is a explotation of what a solar is made, Its only exploit under 1% of the power, just Imagine with 100% It would create a solar!!!!!they are also working on a bing bang bomb  and a blackhole one they manage to create one during 0,00001 millisecond!!!!!!!they can already destroy the earth and its not enough!!!!!!!! |
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Shadow Red Red Koopa Level: 15 Posts: 78/133 EXP: 13999 For next: 2385 Since: 08-11-05 Since last post: 72 days Last activity: 71 days |
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| Im 100 percent certain they arent even sure if blackholes are real yet. The only thign we know is that there are some places in space with VERY dense gravity but it is yet to be seen if its to the force of a blackhole. In fact their are have been many experiments to "fake" the blackhole process, (like creating a microscopic one) but all have failed. Remember blackholes are thought to generated from supernova's after the gravitational collaspe. It be pretty much impossible to fit this into a warhead. No one bomb can destroy the entire earth, a nuclear bomb's blast ratios differ but they arent that wide. To persay "destory" the earth humanity would have to screw itself over by nukeing each other numerous times. Earth would still exist, maybe some people would survive but the radiation would kill most. The DNA altering would have terrible after affects aswell. Then after a couple hundred years we'd start adapting  and be set again. |
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drjayphd Beamos What's that spell? pimp! Level: 56  Posts: 1264/1477 EXP: 1387410 For next: 10766 Since: 03-15-04 From: CT Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by Bio I'm sorry, but what the HELL are you saying? English and easy on the exclamation points. |
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