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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - NASA Goes Up Again: Discovery Touches Down |
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Snika Boo Level: 44  Posts: 253/916 EXP: 600678 For next: 10607 Since: 07-21-04 From: Freezing Cold Alaska! Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 2 days |
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| http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8706454/ Crucial fueling has begun, and the launch will take place soon. This is the first launch sense the Colombia accident in '03, and I'm sure that everyone in NASA will be holding their breathe for this one. There's gotta be some brave people on board that thing. Let's all wish them the best of luck and hope all goes well. =P Snika (edited by Snika on 07-26-05 01:58 AM) |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99  Posts: 4781/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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They REALLY need to retire the Shuttle and get an updated piece of tech. Regardless, if the US wants to lose the new space race...  C'mon! The Russians are beginning to UPDATE BURAN! BURAN! |
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Cymoro PATRICK DUFFY WILL LASER YOUR SOUL   Level: 67  Posts: 1917/2216 EXP: 2549743 For next: 43129 Since: 03-15-04 From: Cymoro Gaming Since last post: 6 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| I just watched the launch live, and it was truly amazing. They even had a camera on the fuel tank when it separated. However, Ziff is right. We really need to update our technology from the 70's. Did you know the Russians send up two crafts at a time? One manned, and the other with food on it. Once they're done unloading the food, it serves its second purpose: burns up in the atmosphere, along with the rest of the cargo it was carrying: garbage. That, folks, is how we keep the Earth clean, by using our natural incinerator. |
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Cornellius Buster Beetle Level: 33  Posts: 323/460 EXP: 224182 For next: 4997 Since: 06-04-04 From: Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada Since last post: 3 days Last activity: 10 hours |
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| Agreed Cymo. I didn't knew that the Russians did that, pretty good idea. :-/ (edited by Cornellius on 07-26-05 03:11 PM) |
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 340/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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| How about we abolish NASA and let the people who work there go into private business? That is probably the way to get space exploration going. | |||
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4790/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Ummmmmmmmm...No. It's been tried, but due to a lack of viable competition an the dangers of allowing private companies selling rocket technology to potential enemy nations...Well, let me say, any relevently trained scientist can look at the booster technology presented by the Boeing Delta 5 and see how to make an effective low lift-ballistic missile. These things are kept secret. The free-market doesn't solve everything. And when you privatize something like that you're JUST asking for a gigantic industry recession or a some sort of unforeseeable backlash/consequence. |
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 349/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by Ziff What are you talking about? NASA's 70s, 80s era technology? The good thing about getting rid of NASA is that all those minds and resources could go to work for the market instead of a bureaucracy. In response to the recession comment, that would only be because the government would stop subsidizing the industry (or at least, not as much as before). Whenever you cut off somebody from their free money, they feel it, but they can begin the process of picking themselves up again. (edited by beneficii on 07-26-05 05:30 PM) (edited by beneficii on 07-26-05 05:30 PM) |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4791/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| What are you talking about!? And no, no they don't. When government subsidies end, the industry pulls out and begins outsourcing to all Hell. So, if you want a giant corporation that has 5 buildings in the States with maybe 300 employees there that are all paper pushers or execs. That's great, because the other jobs are going to be shipped to where the wages are lower, and production is cheaper. So, whatever. Also, there isn't enough consumers to make a viable private industry. It's cheaper for the government to send it all up, and therefore, easier to regulate. 70s and 80s rocket technology? What are you talking about? Rocket technology today is only slightly more advanced than it was in WW2. Mind, you until recentely there were no real innovations in this technology. NASA quickly picked up on it. Now they are losing that gain to the EU, Japan, Russia (surprisingly!) and even Canada (yeah, that shocked me when I heard that). Making it into a private industry is going to ruin that lead further, because companies won't develop new technology, they'll take the technology that already exists and it will STAGNATE. (edited by Ziff on 07-26-05 08:11 PM) |
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 352/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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| Ziff, And no, no they don't. When government subsidies end, the industry pulls out and begins outsourcing to all Hell. So, if you want a giant corporation that has 5 buildings in the States with maybe 300 employees there that are all paper pushers or execs. That's great, because the other jobs are going to be shipped to where the wages are lower, and production is cheaper. So, whatever. Also, there isn't enough consumers to make a viable private industry. It's cheaper for the government to send it all up, and therefore, easier to regulate. Well, it shows that there is something terribly wrong on our side of things if companies keep wanting to pull out when they don't have government money any more, eh? Even in making a whole rocket to be launched Stateside all done in China or India and then shipped over. Then again, I don't think the picture is as gloomy as you paste it. In certain industries, companies find it more efficient to produce those products in another country; in other words, it's folly for a country to try to produce everything for itself. And yes, there could be deficits, but that is caused by a surplus of investments going into the U.S. Also, if the industry isn't viable, then why should it exist? Why should people keep being forced to subsidize it? No wonder it's a dinosaur (q.v. below)! 70s and 80s rocket technology? What are you talking about? Rocket technology today is only slightly more advanced than it was in WW2. Mind, you until recentely there were no real innovations in this technology. NASA quickly picked up on it. Now they are losing that gain to the EU, Japan, Russia (surprisingly!) and even Canada (yeah, that shocked me when I heard that). Making it into a private industry is going to ruin that lead further, because companies won't develop new technology, they'll take the technology that already exists and it will STAGNATE. It being only slightly more advanced then it was in WW2 I think proves my point even more. Who held a legal monopoly on space launches until the '80s and had it illegal for anyone else to make space launches? The government! After that, the industry was so dominated by the government it was hard to get anything really truly private going until recently. I must say, while NASA lost half its shuttle fleet (and didn't make any efforts to rebuild it or come up with anything new), private organizations such as those who made SpaceShipOne were being innovative in coming up with new, cheaper ways of launching into space. As you know, companies will use technology that suits their costs and their customers In fact, I must now point you to a funny story: http://www.spacefuture.com/vehicles/how_the_west_wasnt_won_nafa.shtml Because of all this, I believe those minds that make up NASA are of better use in the private sector, because they simply STAGNATE in NASA. (edited by beneficii on 07-26-05 08:48 PM) (edited by beneficii on 07-26-05 08:48 PM) |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4792/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by beneficii Top bad that HORRIBLE government monopoly has been EXCELLENT. CHEAPER? Spaceshipone costs several hundreds of thousands of dollars to launch and can't carry crap. |
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 353/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by ZiffOriginally posted by beneficii Only because we haven't been able to see the full potential of the private sector. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4793/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| There is no potential. NONE! |
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 354/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by Ziff Wow, I was so defeated by that comment, when I was told the market has no potential. There is plenty of potential if you would allow it (that is, allow it, not make it illegal, because how are we to see its potential if it's illegal?). After all, the SpaceShipOne was not made for profit, but it was made as a result of private donors willing to part with their money to accomplish something. Early aviation started off with private donors who wanted things accomplished; there were many contests prior to WWI that required contestants to accomplish new aviation fleets by altitude and distance. Even though he spent several times the prize money to build the Pride of St. Louis and fuel it, Charles Lindbergh flew across the Atlantic in the craft to win the prize. And now, we see space tourism arising, because there are people who want to spend money to go into space. We will wait and see how it will turn out. Just because the market crashes once or twice should not be reason to despair either, because as you know, the video game market crashed twice too when it was just starting up (late 70's and again in early '80s)--markets in their infancy will tend to have bad practices in businesses causing a lot of them to go belly up when the hype ends, but they quickly pick themselves up with new and better practices. Of course, I can't even begin to foresee how the space market will turn out, but I think that if the government quits interfering, it will do just fine. |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35  Posts: 382/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| The private sector is terrible at high risk upfront investments with only a long-term payoff (eg transport and utilities infrastructure). They're pretty decent at taking over these sorts of ventures later on... well, they can be, but as for building them... no. | |||
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 357/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by Arwon Well, the evidence suggests otherwise; explain ventures like Branson's company and his challenge to have the first orbital launch by 2010 and also Virgin Galactica. Also explain how the private sector did all those aviation challenges so well and help made advances. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4813/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Yeah. Spaceship One didn't actually go into space and it can't even carry cargo or anything really. And it is hella spensive. It really is quite a waste and a terrible example. Therefore, there is no evidence. |
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 358/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by alte Hexe So was the Spirit of St. Louis (it cost several times the prize money that it won); not long after Lindbergh's famous voyage a market for intercontinental flights developed. Also, shouldn't the government have the burden of proof and freely acting individuals the benefit of the doubt? (edited by beneficii on 07-27-05 09:43 AM) |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35 Posts: 384/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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Originally posted by beneficiiOriginally posted by Arwon The infrastructure's already been laid down... NASA and the USSR's equivalent have been researching and developing for 30 years. Branson isn't starting from zero. And aviation advances? Well, in the early days, mostly during the World Wars with heavy influence from government money! |
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 359/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by ArwonOriginally posted by beneficiiOriginally posted by Arwon Why would Branson start from zero? It would make no sense. If you recall, it was illegal for anyone other than the government to make space launches until about 20 years ago, so there was no way we could have seen private competition and, as you know, launching into space is quite different from smuggling drugs. Well, the governments massed-produced aircraft during World War I, but they mainly rode on the technological innovations that came out prior to that war. It's debatable how helpful the mass-production was, but it created a huge supply of ready-made aircraft most of which was sold off after the war ended. Then again, is the inflationary effect, regarding the materials making up those aircraft, when the government ordered them made. It might be interesting to research the exact effects of all that. There were innovations in World War II, but how much from the private sector as compared to the government sector is debatable. In the decade leading up to World War II, in many countries the government started having more control over the production of aircraft, though I think in the U.S. that didn't happen until the country entered the war. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4816/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by beneficiiOriginally posted by Arwonas you know, launching into space is quite different from smuggling drugs.Originally posted by beneficiiOriginally posted by Arwon On point 1: WTF!? On point 2: Aviation wasn't private until...Hell, it's still not god damned private except for private jets like the Gulf Stream V and stuff. Pretty much every civilian aircraft is built on government contracts because airlines are generally part owned by the governments who have to police their skies. Simple fact is that the private industry doesn't always equal innovation. Plus, these are very different issues. The airplane had a practical civilian mode as well being relatively inexpensive in the grand scheme of travel. Rocketry and space travel on the other hand has only had appropriate infrastructure since around...I don't know...The day Gagarin got into space they started making it. And giving that there is still no safe, cost-effective method of getting into space, there won't be any real infrastructure. Space travel will, for the coming decades, either be for research or military applications. The costs are too expensive for the companies to be able to handle sales to civilians (100'000 dollars a seat on something that costs about 250'000-400'000 to launch...with no guarantee of safety). Private companies will hop on in about 50 years, that is, if space turns out to be a completely viable industry at all. |
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