 |
| Register | Login | |||||
 |
Main
| Memberlist
| Active users
| ACS
| Commons
| Calendar
| Online users Ranks | FAQ | Color Chart | Photo album | IRC Chat |
|
| | ||
|
| Register | Login | |||||
|
Main
| Memberlist
| Active users
| ACS
| Commons
| Calendar
| Online users Ranks | FAQ | Color Chart | Photo album | IRC Chat |
|
| | ||
1 user currently in Rom Hacking:  hukka |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - Xtreme graphics NES demo |
 |  |  |
| Add to favorites | "RSS" Feed | Next newer thread | Next older thread |
| User | Post | ||
Dish Spiny Level: 38 Posts: 459/596 EXP: 355646 For next: 14801 Since: 03-15-04 From: Disch Since last post: 18 days Last activity: 18 days |
| ||
| I just finished work on an NES homebrew demo which shows off the XTREME capabilities of the NES. The download is available here: http://elazulspad.net/disch/xtremenesdemo.zip Like I said, this shows off the XTREME graphical capabilities of the NES. Here is a screenshot of the demo in progres:  This is not a fake screenshot. Download the demo if you don't believe me This demo uses an emulator feature which has not caught on in some emus. One emu which supports it is the PL6 build of Schpune: http://elazulspad.net/disch/Schpune_PL6.zip Rather than show jarbled graphics, the game will detect emus which don't support it and will give an error message. This demo will not run as expected on a real NES. But do you think I really care if it would run on an NES? I don't have the resources to make a demo run on an NES so it's no sweat off my back. I enjoyed doing the graphics for this demo. If I see an oppotunity to make my graphics look better then I'm going to take it. Coming soon -- XTREME sound demo. Witness CD QUALITY sound coming from your NES*! Stay tuned! *NES emu only, not actually the NES system EDIT: links updated -- no more geocities (edited by Disch on 07-25-05 05:20 PM) |
|||
Someguy Buzzy Beetle It seems as though the girl you've fallen for is also a pyromaniac. Level: 32  Posts: 357/397 EXP: 193329 For next: 13113 Since: 03-15-04 From: I'm proud to be an American... I think... Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 5 hours |
| ||
That's amazing, but what is this feature and how does it work? What are the limits? Does it only allow single images or could it be applied to a game in real time? Should we just forget about the SNES entirely if with the right stuff NES emus can support this and CD quality sound?  |
|||
beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 332/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
| ||
| Putting this in Nintendulator, will get back to you on it.... Hey, Disch, can you like upload it to a different site? You exceeded your bandwidth limit. Or perhaps you can e-mail me? Oh, well, upon further reading it wouldn't work on the real NES. I just don't see the point. (edited by beneficii on 07-25-05 05:10 PM) (edited by beneficii on 07-25-05 05:17 PM) |
|||
|
Dish Spiny Level: 38 Posts: 460/596 EXP: 355646 For next: 14801 Since: 03-15-04 From: Disch Since last post: 18 days Last activity: 18 days |
| ||
| I figured that would happen. I'm [hopefully] getting some new webspace now. New links to come. EDIT -- original post updated ^^ Problem solved (edited by Disch on 07-25-05 05:20 PM) |
|||
bbitmaster Koopa Level: 18  Posts: 88/103 EXP: 25264 For next: 4633 Since: 03-28-04 From: Knoxville, tTN Since last post: 12 days Last activity: 7 days |
| ||
| Wow, with your special emulator, you've basically mutated the nes into something far more Xtreme. Forget custom palette hacks. I can't imagine how many new hacks with amazing graphics this could bring about. Way to go Disch! |
|||
Dr. Mario Bot Level: 26  Posts: 224/262 EXP: 99225 For next: 3050 Since: 05-04-04 Since last post: 53 min. Last activity: 41 min. |
| ||
| Cute. Remind me to agree with you all the time from now on. **EDIT** You DO know that an NES is capiable of 16-Bit graphics right? I mean, I don't want to blow your mind or anything, but with a little extra hardware, third party compant Color Dreams made a prototype of a 16-bit Hollraiser game. Due to production costs and Nintendo not letting it get released because of the new hardware it never saw the light of day though. Reguardless, the NES can do a lot more than you think. (edited by Dr. Mario on 07-25-05 06:43 PM) |
|||
|
Dish Spiny Level: 38 Posts: 461/596 EXP: 355646 For next: 14801 Since: 03-15-04 From: Disch Since last post: 18 days Last activity: 18 days |
| ||
| I would've thought you would be happy with this development. I mean it allows for better graphics! Isn't that what you were after? | |||
|
beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 334/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
| ||
Originally posted by Disch Well, it's just that it's not NES, so I don't know if it can be valid. Now, in response to Dr. Mario's comment, if someone can make a mapper that allows for this and can get it to work on the real NES, then I would change my view. EDIT: Perhaps, something based on the MMC3? Behold, the MMC7! $8000 write FCxx xLLL F: Do EOR $1000 for CHR-ROM bank swap C: Have fixed banks be at $E000 and $8000 instead of $E000 and $C000 L: if following value: 0 - swap 2k bank to CHR-ROM $0000 1 - swap 2k bank to CHR-ROM $0800 2 - swap 1k bank to CHR-ROM $1000 3 - swap 1k bank to CHR-ROM $1400 4 - swap 1k bank to CHR-ROM $1800 5 - swap 1k bank to CHR-ROM $1C00 6 - swap 8k bank to PRG-ROM $8000 (or $C000, depending on fixed) 7 - swap 8k bank to PRG-ROM $A000 $8001 write BBBB BBBB B: Bank to swap to $8000 write $A000 write xxxx xxxM M: mirroring (0=vertical, 1=horizontal) $A001 write xxxx xxVS V: allow writes to SAVERAM S: enable SAVERAM ($6000-$7FFF) $A002 write xxxx xxB4 B: allow 4-bits per pixel (will use nametable that would normally mirror it--i.e., if vertical, the one above it, if horizontal, the one below--4-screen mirroring must be enabled!) 4: allow 4-screen mirroring (required for space for the extra pixel bits, if allowed) $A003 write xxxx xxxE E: make CHR-ROM directly writeable (through $2006/$2007, of course) $C000 write CCCC CCCC write IRQ counter here $C001 write write any value to copy the IRQ counter from $C000 to $C001 so it can begin $E000 write write any value to disable the IRQ counter $E001 write write any value to enable the IRQ counter Tell me how feasible this is. (edited by beneficii on 07-25-05 07:01 PM) |
|||
|
Dish Spiny Level: 38 Posts: 462/596 EXP: 355646 For next: 14801 Since: 03-15-04 From: Disch Since last post: 18 days Last activity: 18 days |
| ||
Originally posted by Dr. Mario That depends what you mean by 16-bit graphics. The PPU is limited to 2bpp tiles any way you slice it. However you can alter the PPU state between tiles to change which colors are drawn and when. The NES cannot display any colors other than those in its "rigid" palette. Well those colors and the variations by the color emphasis bits. The only other real restriction in its graphics output is that each output tile graphic uses the same attribute byte. So each 8x1 pixel area on the screen will be restricted to 4 colors -- however which colors can be changed at any time by the cart assuming it has the hardware to do so. So yes you can have very detailed graphics on the NES without system modifications. However no matter how beefed up your cartridge hardware is, you're STILL restricted to the following: - each 8x1 pixel area on the screen cannot have more than 4 colors - you cannot output any colors not in the NES's palette. You're limited to the 64 colors it gives you (or really 512 if you count all the color emphasis combinations) - only one Background -- no multiple layers - no more than 8 sprites on any 1 scanline (maximum of 64 sprites pixels rendered on any one scanlnie) I'm also aware that on the Famicom, since the sound is run through the cartridge, you can also have very high quality sound (potentially much higher than 44KHz). However you are restricted to mono -- no stereo. I'm aware of the Color Dreams "Hellraiser" cart.
Nah... I'm well aware of what it can do. And what it can't do. Originally posted by beneficii Yes, I know. I was sort of trying to show how ridiculous/problematic some views on emulation are. If something like this XTREME demo were to actually be serious, I would be very, very upset, since it goes against everything emulators try to accomplish. However as a practical joke I think it's pretty funny. Hilarious in fact XD (edited by Disch on 07-25-05 07:06 PM) |
|||
|
beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 335/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
| ||
| I would too. BTW, who made Schpune? Anyway, would something like I outlined in my proposed mapper be feasible? |
|||
|
Dish Spiny Level: 38 Posts: 463/596 EXP: 355646 For next: 14801 Since: 03-15-04 From: Disch Since last post: 18 days Last activity: 18 days |
| ||
| Schpune is my emu -- although that "PL6" build is the joke build for the XTREME demo. The PL6 build will run other games normally though. As for your proposal: B: allow 4-bits per pixel -- this is beyond what the NES can do. You're stuck with 2bpp. The best you can do is change/replace the palette/attribute data between tile fetches (that's kind of what MMC5 does in ExAttribute mode) E: make CHR-ROM directly writeable -- ROM (aka Read Only Memory) is, by definition, not writable. I fail to see why you'd want to do that anyway... or maybe I'm just not understanding? |
|||
|
beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 336/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
| ||
Originally posted by Disch Well, for that latter one, I heard vaguely something about making it writeable (I think it gets its name changed to VRAM or something when that happens), for certain animations, but let's quietly drop that subject.   Oh, there's no way to trick the NES into masking the bits in one table with the bits in the other? |
|||
|
Dish Spiny Level: 38 Posts: 464/596 EXP: 355646 For next: 14801 Since: 03-15-04 From: Disch Since last post: 18 days Last activity: 18 days |
| ||
Originally posted by beneficii Not without modifying the system. For each rendered tile (8x1 pixels), the PPU makes 4 reads from the cart: - 1 nametable byte - 1 attribute table byte - Pattern Table byte A (low bitplane) - Pattern Table byte B (high bitplane) A few cycles later... the bitplanes have their bits shifted out and rendered. The cartridge cannot interrupt this process at all, no matter what kind of wacky hardware it has (unless it can like short out the system or something crazy like that). The best it can do is change the state between each of these fetches. Like I said, that's kind of what MMC5 does -- it feeds a modified attribute byte and different pattern table bytes where it feels appropriate (that's how it does things like extrended attribute mode, and its vertical split screen effect) But no way, no how are you getting more than 4 colors per 8x1 pixel tile. You could overlay a bunch of sprites one top of each other to get a lot of color depth (sort of like having the sprites act like different graphic layers)... but as mentioned before... you can only have 64 sprite pixels per scanline -- so that will only work to a point. (edited by Disch on 07-25-05 07:22 PM) |
|||
|
BMF98567 BLACK HAS BUILT A SILLY DICE-MAZE! GO! Current list of BURNING FURY >8( recipients: - Yiffy Kitten (x2) - Xkeeper Level: 53  Posts: 1005/1261 EXP: 1094149 For next: 62970 Since: 03-15-04 From: Blobaria Special Move: Rising Meatloaf Backhand Combo Since last post: 21 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
| ||
Originally posted by DischActually, I *think* there is a way to feed video into the expansion port and display it in place of the background color, but that would require a stupid amount of hardware on the cart, as well as an expansion port adapter connected to said cart, so uh...never mind. (Actually, I believe Nintendo was planning just such an adapter for the US NES to get expanded sound out of the MMC5, since the carts' sound output is routed to a pin on the edge connector that goes to the expansion port. The adapter would just connect the sound IN and OUT pins together on the expansion port.) |
|||
|
Dish Spiny Level: 38 Posts: 470/596 EXP: 355646 For next: 14801 Since: 03-15-04 From: Disch Since last post: 18 days Last activity: 18 days |
| ||
| Aha, yes I could see that. Nice catch BMF | |||
|
HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 6091/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
| ||
| I have to agree with Disch. The point of emulation is to do things exactly how the real system does them. If you make an NES emulator that can render 3D models and run a billion instructions a second, even if it does run NES games, it's no longer an emulator. It's a scripting engine that's NES-compatible. Your games won't work on any other emulator, let alone a real NES; you may as well be making a PC game. Now if you can find a way to do these things on a real NES (and no fair replacing the CPU/PPU; addons/cart tricks only ), then sure, go ahead and put them in emulators. The point, though, is that an emulator does what an NES does, so if an NES can't do it, neither should an emulator. (This of course doesn't apply to useful things like save states and frameskip, because these features are transparent to the game; you can't design a game that relies on them or even knows they exist.) If a game does one thing on an emulator, and a different thing on an NES, the emulator is defective. |
| Add to favorites | "RSS" Feed | Next newer thread | Next older thread |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - Xtreme graphics NES demo |
| | |
