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| 0 user currently in World Affairs / Debate. |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - "The Decline and Fall of Conservatism" by Butler Shaffer |
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 327/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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| http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer114.html This is a very well-written article about how the modern conservative movement has corrupted itself and is leading the nation down a destructive path. I think it's definitely worth reading. (edited by beneficii on 07-25-05 08:13 PM) (edited by beneficii on 07-25-05 08:13 PM) |
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seanbabaganoosh Paragoomba Level: 13  Posts: 48/71 EXP: 8476 For next: 1791 Since: 04-15-05 From: Canada Since last post: 59 days Last activity: 59 days |
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| Very interesting article. Unfortunately, I think most nations, not just the US, will become more paranoid about security in the years to come. I definitely believe security has become a major topic lately with all the terrorist attacks. I fear that democracy is not as strong as it was. Our rights and freedoms may be put into jeopordy just to ensure national security. Could an NWO be possible? |
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Reshaper256 Bee Level: 19  Posts: 128/143 EXP: 34776 For next: 1001 Since: 09-14-04 From: United States Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 9 hours |
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| Very good article. I'm surrounded by modern conservatism myself, and I'm glad to see that there are smart people out there (besides my dad and John Stewart) who can see that all this rampant stupidity is an inevitable trainwreck. Thanks for posting this. | |||
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 365/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by Reshaper256 You know, I really do like John Stewart. I have been catching his Daily Show more often. I love it that they always bring on that guy who is always a lavish supporter of the neocons. sean, I personally doubt that an NWO is possible. I think people overestimate the crumbling international organizations. I think devolution is where it's at (or at least will be shortly). (edited by beneficii on 07-28-05 01:59 AM) |
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Okilian Red Goomba Level: 10  Posts: 25/43 EXP: 3290 For next: 1124 Since: 06-19-05 From: Ohio Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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| I hope you guys know, but political comedians/shows like the Daily Show aren't necesarily against Conservatives...as much as who ever is in power at the time. They do it for laughs... | |||
alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99  Posts: 4858/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Yeah. When conservatives are in power all they do is give 1 ups to the liberals. Man conservatives hate conservatives. | |||
windwaker Ball and Chain Trooper WHY ALL THE MAYONNAISE HATE Level: 61  Posts: 1740/1797 EXP: 1860597 For next: 15999 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 4 days Last activity: 6 days |
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Originally posted by Reshaper256 Heh. And yeah, the only reason they're still in power in America is that people feel that anyone who can get a job with the government is smart enough to deserve that job. The others just don't care. ;( |
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Clockworkz Birdo  "Hoargh! Take your shoes off!" Level: 64  Posts: 1760/2002 EXP: 2188320 For next: 25777 Since: 03-15-04 From: Undisclosed Since last post: 12 hours Last activity: 12 hours |
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| I love quoting my Bio. ------------------------ "one problem with cultural conservatism: to put it simply, and it's not a problem that only conservatives have, conservatives very often confuse (or conflate) ethics and aesthetics. when gertrude himmelfarb lambasts our (as she perceives it) 'amoral', 'sexually deviant' and 'polymorphously perverse' culture she is primarily responding to something that she finds culturally foreign and threatening. i agree with her that values are oftentimes a good thing, but only when they are born of an ethical and pragmatic perspective, not an aesthetic one. the conservatives want a seemingly neat and compartmentalised society wherein stable appearances are maintained and archaic cultural archetypes are adhered to religiously. i grew up in a world of rigid cultural archetypes. i grew up with white businessmen going to office buildings while their wives stayed at home and their kids went to school. or, more accurately, i grew up with alcoholic adulterous businessmen who lived culturally insular lives while their wives took sedatives and smoked cigarettes and vented their frustrations on their kids, and these same kids took reams of drugs, got abortions, drove drunk, and victimised the weaklings. i grew up in what most conservatives would consider a utopia; lots of money, prestige, cultural cohesion, and good conservative values. but their values were in fact aesthetics, and maintaining these aesthetics ruled and ruined their lives. almost everyone in this suburban bourgeoisie system hated their lives, but because they had been brought up to worship these aesthetic myths they felt that to question them was an admission of personal fKitten Yiffer. what are these myths? they're old and platitudinal but i'll trot them out again: that money makes you happy, that society is right, that poverty is bad, that maintaining convention in every aspect of your life is the ultimate good, that aberrance from these ideas is sin, etc. i'm not going to say that the polar opposites of these clich |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4895/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| ...who wrote these, EXACTLY, clockworkz? | |||
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Clockworkz Birdo "Hoargh! Take your shoes off!" Level: 64 Posts: 1762/2002 EXP: 2188320 For next: 25777 Since: 03-15-04 From: Undisclosed Since last post: 12 hours Last activity: 12 hours |
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| Moby. Read my bio. I agree 100% with his views. Except that I'm an aetheist, and he isn't. | |||
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4896/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Alright, just you know...Make that clear. | |||
Arwon Zora Level: 35  Posts: 389/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| Someone should tell Moby about Capital Letters. (edited by Arwon on 07-31-05 02:24 AM) |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4897/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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Originally posted by Arwon Shhhhhh...They don't exist in the Karmic mind of the Buddhist. |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35 Posts: 390/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| Bollocks. Oh, sorry. bollocks (edited by Arwon on 07-31-05 02:27 AM) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38  Posts: 600/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Intellectual masturbation and wishful thinking. It's true that conservatives in governments have become bloated with power and prone to corruption... but such is the nature of power, so they say. But the conservative movement as a whole is ascendent nonetheless, both socially and intellectually. The enemy doesn't have to be the terrorists - it can be the welfare state and those who believe in material redistribution. Faith in rugged American individualism and exceptionalism are undoubtedly at their highest levels since the 60s. Liberals have very little ground and the Democrats are criticized as a party without ideas - and rightly so, because they simply don't have them. They are on the defensive. If the conservative coalition that now dominates American politics whiters away, it will not be because of intellectual bankruptcy but rather because those with power used it to gain more power rather than achieve the goals which they espoused. I believe this will happen - there are many examples of conservative overreach for which the Republicans are taking damage - the sketchy justification of the Iraq war, the Plame incident, Terry Shiavo, out of control spending, etc. But these are not issues with conservatism as a whole. True Burkean conservatives are most likely horrified by what's been happening. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 5030/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| I can handle economic conservatives who preach privatizing everything. They've got logic circuits that work and can be debated with...generally. I cannot handle the raging whack jobs like Rick Santorum that have taken historical facts and twisted and distorted them to fit into their small world views. To conclude, economic conservatives of the Canadian variety like Robert Stanfield. Are a-okay because they care about society. They are respectable and can be debated with and are generally cool all around. Fringe conservatives like Stockwell Day are plenty crazy and can neither be spoken to nor debated. But... The enemy doesn't have to be the terrorists - it can be the welfare state and those who believe in material redistribution. Is a terrible statement. The definition of an enemy is too extreme. I don't understand this complete and blatent hatred of democractic rights that many modern paleo-conservatives epouse. Whatever happened to the days where nations like Canada and Sweden and Norway and Finland, et al. could exist peacefully without having people frothing at the mouth at us? I find it odd that nowadays democracy = capitalism. I don't understand this conservative dichotomy. I find it hilarious that people make statements of this sort can go on to claim that their "enemies" are on the decline and have little footing. Many political scientists of a high degree, in fact many people of any intellectual degree, would state that the weak have to have an enemy to make a rally call. (edited by alte Hexe on 08-11-05 06:45 PM) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 601/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Democracy is a system wherein, supposedly, the ultimate sovereign is the People. This says nothing for the scope of government. What are "democratic rights"? The right to take from the rich and give to the poor, just because they are rich and you are poor, and you outnumber them? The right to tell your neighbor who he can sleep with, and in what manner? The right to enslave minorities? These are not the kinds of "rights" which the founding fathers in America envisaged. These are not the kind of "rights" that you envisage, I hope. When you say "democratic rights", I take it to mean "the right to force others to do as you will, limited only by my personal sense of justice." Thus, having a redistributionist system is a "democratic right", but something like instituting segregation isn't. Democracy is merely the least worst system. The genius of America lies in its Constitutionally-limited government and federalist division of authority. And yea, Santorum is nutty. One of the tenets of conservatism is a respect for tradition and authority, but legislating respect is a very sketchy thing to do. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 5035/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| I don't see why people see the welfare state as some sort of enemy. So what if a multi-millionaire faces a few thousand dollars of extra in taxes? I'd much rather him not be able to drink from a gold-coated Coke can than have ANOTHER 450 homeless freeze to death in Toronto. | |||
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 602/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Slippery slopes and whatnot. Before you know it, you have guaranteed incomes and 15% unemployment rates. Europe. | |||
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 5040/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Same thing with the conservative economy. Pretty soon you have a renewed aristocracy and a massive depression. |
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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - "The Decline and Fall of Conservatism" by Butler Shaffer |
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