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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - World Affairs / Debate - Politically correct language |
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Rydain Ropa Blaze Phoenix Runs With the Dragon Within Level: 42  Posts: 625/738 EXP: 490056 For next: 31306 Since: 03-15-04 From: State College, PA Since last post: 6 days Last activity: 8 hours |
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I recently came across a board in which someone received a mod warning for using the word "lame" as an insult. It is evidently considered "ableist" language (read: offensive to the disabled). That seemed downright ridiculous to me. I can understand why some people take offense to words such as "gay" and "retarded" being used as synonyms for "dumb", "teh sux", etc., as said words are very commonly used to describe people with some characteristic, so using them as an insult can be construed as saying that the characteristic itself is Bad (umkay?). I could also see somebody getting annoyed at, say, "Boy, that movie sure was handicapped! No plot, bad acting...it really was a guy in a wheelchair waste of time! It was even more quadriplegic than Gigli!"  But really, when's the last time you heard anyone use "lame" in everyday speech to describe a physical difficulty? Its colloquial meaning seems to be the most common usage by far. Heck, at least one dictionary lists "feeble" as its first definition (source). Then there's the issue of euphemisms and different ways of saying the same thing. I can understand saying that "Bob uses a wheelchair" instead of "Bob is confined to a wheelchair". No meaning is lost, and it sounds less pity-inducing (and is probably more accurate - most people aren't actually in the chair 24-7). But I would never say "Bob is differently abled" because it is awkward and very ambiguous. Differently abled from whom and in what sense? You could say that Joe and Susie are differently abled in sports because Joe is better at soccer and Susie is better at baseball. You could also say that they're differently abled in science because Joe is better at biology and Susie is better at physics. Yada yada yada. I also think it's stupid to chuck out perfectly OK words just because they happen to resemble something offensive. Niggardly is not a racial slur. Anybody who freaks out over that needs a good drubbing with a dictionary. Gah. At any rate, I'm curious...when do you think it's worthwhile to try to use inoffensive language, and when do you think it gets silly? |
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NSNick Laidback Admin Level: 85  Posts: 2790/3875 EXP: 5895841 For next: 2699 Since: 03-15-04 From: North Side School: OSU Since last post: 9 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| I hate political correctness. Well, after a point I do. I can understand not using ethnic slurs, homophobic comments, etc. But my friends and I are pretty politically incorrect, because we're relaxed with each other and such. Rydain: I take it you've heard that story about the guy being fired for using "niggardly" in a meeting or something, right? |
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 5475/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Yes, it drives me nuts when someone yells at someone else for using a certain word because it happens to offend some people. They don't like it, they can cover their ears. Also, why is it OK to call the British 'brits' and the Scottish 'scots' but you can't call the Japanese 'japs'?  |
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Koneko Flurry Level: 21  Posts: 38/256 EXP: 49237 For next: 706 Since: 06-11-05 From: Tartarus, tartarus, tartarus Since last post: 9 hours Last activity: 8 hours |
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| In my experience, it's not okay to call the British Brits or the Scottish Scots, at least according to people of those nationalities I happen to know. And whatever deity you believe in protect you if you were to call the Scottish the Scotch. | |||
alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99  Posts: 4403/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| There are different levels of political correctness. When you're on a PUBLIC stage as a POLITICIAN you can't blab your mouth and call Germans krauts and go on and on about fags. It's really unbecoming. That's A-okay political correctness when people say "yeah, don't do that. Uncool". Attacking people's race, religion, etc. is not cool. You can be politically correct there. But when you begin to limit language like "lame" which has lost its effective meaning, you lose any real credibility. People who go on and on about how political correctness is a scourge are just as bad. Because Japs is a detrimental term that was used against them by the Russians, same thing as Nips. It has a meaning that is basically detrimental to them as a race and sets them up like slaves. |
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Ben rhymes with ??? Paragoomba Level: 12  Posts: 42/69 EXP: 6845 For next: 1076 Since: 06-12-05 Since last post: 101 days Last activity: 3 days |
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| Koneko: I'm a Brit. Ouch, I just offended myself. I wouldn't care what you called me, a pommy, a limey or whatever. If people really do think you're worse than them because you're of a different nationality, and they use a racist slur to detract from your intelligence, then by their use of such crappy and sweeping terms they have already lost the battle. Otherwise, I find words like 'pommy' and 'limey' acceptable and somewhat jolly. As for the word 'niggardly', the only time it's used is to test someone's politically correct radar; the only times I've heard the word used is in discussion about political correctness. It's an almost archaic word that doesn't really need using. I don't care much for O.T.T political correctness, but you can't blame someone for finding the word 'niggardly' offensive, because to the majority of people who don't read the dictionary while eating their breakfasts, it sounds pretty offensive. (edited by Ben rhymes with ??? on 07-03-05 06:58 AM) |
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Dei* Nipper Plant Level: 26  Posts: 273/412 EXP: 97995 For next: 4280 Since: 06-18-05 From: USA, Florida Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 1 day |
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Originally posted by HyperHacker Well, I don't really agree with that. I mean you can voice your opinion and talk to yourself or whatever but I don't think you should say things amongst people that would take offence to it, obviously. I.E. saying "Jesus Christ" amongst Christians. |
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Slay Level: 25 Posts: 208/339 EXP: 85592 For next: 4028 Since: 04-28-05 From: Threshold Between Heaven and Hell Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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| I see politically correct language as as much of a linguistic crux as the words it opposes. We speak in cliche almost exclusively and express complex feelings by simply saying, "This sucks." Language is in a terrible decline, and it's not just English that suffers this effect. But replacing lazy language with different phrases for the sake of being politically correct isn't solving the problem. But I suppose that's off the topic. People who talk PC don't intend to improve the linguistic skills of the public at large, they intend to slap people's hands with rulers when they say something that could be remotely construed as offensive. Which is a silly thing to crusade for, if you ask me. When we have orginizations like the KKK in existence and someone ignores that in favor of complaining about someone's use of the word "lame" to describe an undesirable situation, then we have people who either need to get their priorities straight, or have too much free time on their hands. |
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Thayer Fuzz Ball Level: 38  Posts: 58/988 EXP: 349428 For next: 21019 Since: 06-28-05 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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| http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=niggardly 1. Grudging and petty in giving or spending. 2. Meanly small; scanty or meager: left the waiter a niggardly tip. I remember last year in school, people were being idiots when they first saw the vocab list and freaking out over it before they knew what it meant. >/ |
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NSNick Laidback Admin Level: 85 Posts: 2803/3875 EXP: 5895841 For next: 2699 Since: 03-15-04 From: North Side School: OSU Since last post: 9 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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Originally posted by Ben rhymes with ??? Yes I can. If you're going to condemn someone for using a word, you should damn well know what the word means. |
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alte Hexe Star Mario I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night Alive as you and me "But Joe you're ten years dead!" "I never died" said he "I never died!" said he Level: 99 Posts: 4433/5458 EXP: 9854489 For next: 145511 Since: 03-15-04 From: ... Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Yes, because such an arcane and unused word is in the average ken of the common denizen of any given economic boundary that was drawn up by Eurocentrists and colonialists centuries ago? NSNick, if you can go through your entire vocabulary and then tell me the meaning of every little unused term, then you can honestly make that assertion. Simple fact is that I don't expect people to know what ane means or hubris or anyother term that is either under the weather in usage or technical. |
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Dei* Nipper Plant Level: 26 Posts: 281/412 EXP: 97995 For next: 4280 Since: 06-18-05 From: USA, Florida Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 1 day |
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Originally posted by NSNickOriginally posted by Ben rhymes with ??? You ask far too much of most people.  |
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NSNick Laidback Admin Level: 85 Posts: 2806/3875 EXP: 5895841 For next: 2699 Since: 03-15-04 From: North Side School: OSU Since last post: 9 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| I'm not saying everyone should be expected to know what it means. I'm saying that it's not right to terminate someone's employment for using a word that you think sounds bad, without knowing what it means. | |||
Kaioshin Blue Octorok Level: 10  Posts: 32/45 EXP: 3473 For next: 941 Since: 06-23-05 From: Slovenia Since last post: 94 days Last activity: 57 days |
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| I was preparing my reply when I notices it was virtually the same as Ziff's. Therefor I'm only going to say I second his opinion. ...it's really getting too far. The base idea is okay, but now, it's getting out of hand. |
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Ben rhymes with ??? Paragoomba Level: 12 Posts: 51/69 EXP: 6845 For next: 1076 Since: 06-12-05 Since last post: 101 days Last activity: 3 days |
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| http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=niggardly&meta= Just about every google result for 'niggardly' reveals a tedious debate about political correctness. In the book The Ancestor's Tale by Richard Dawkins, he uses the word niggardly. Finally, I thought, somebody has actually used the word in context and not tried to make a big self-righteous literary point about it. But the word had a little asterisk next to it, which lead my eyes to a short footnote about how a student mistakenly accused his teacher of using a racial slur. From then on, 'niggardly' was consigned to the realm of in-joke. Of course, I agree that you shouldn't be fired for it, but it's such a loaded word that by saying it you're begging for trouble. |
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Rydain Ropa Blaze Phoenix Runs With the Dragon Within Level: 42 Posts: 628/738 EXP: 490056 For next: 31306 Since: 03-15-04 From: State College, PA Since last post: 6 days Last activity: 8 hours |
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Originally posted by NSNickWord to that and your earlier post. Also, I strongly disagree with the principle of discarding harmless words just because they might sound bad to someone unfamiliar with their meaning. The more vocabulary in a language, the wider range of nuance and connotation one can express with it. Why limit that to pander to others' ignorance? It's unreasonable to expect Joe or Jane Sixpack to know the definition of every single word they encounter, but what exactly is so horrific about expecting them to have the basic intellectual curiosity required to look up definitions of words they don't know? Dictionaries, reference desks, and teh intarweb exist for a reason. If someone doesn't know what a word means, it should be their responsibility to look it up or otherwise find out. If they don't know how to spell it or don't have access to an appropriate reference, they could even (now here's a concept) ask the person what they said instead of immediately hitting the roof. In general, I am severely chafed by the concept that a speaker or writer is supposed to try to choose words that everyone who could possibly come across their work would understand. I've actually seen people complain that scientific journals are too incomprehensible. Can we say holy technical audience, Batman? There are many, many complex concepts and processes in science that are commonly represented by a single word. Would it not get ludicrous if every paper involving such a concept or process had to teach it in excruciating detail for anybody who lacked a background in the subject and happened to come across the research? At any rate, I can understand thinking that a word might be offensive, but there's no excuse for freaking out unless you're sure that it actually was. Ben rhymes with ??? - Even if you're teaching a university class discussing the works of Chaucer, in which "niggardly" actually appears? (link) I agree that it would be prudent to avoid the word when addressing Joe and Jane Sixpack, but you'd think that adults in a literature course would be mature enough to handle a word included in said literature. In high school English class, we read Huckleberry Finn, which includes many, many instances of the actual word "nigger". Said class was racially diverse, with multiple black students, and nobody went batzoid over it. The teacher made it clear that the book had been written over a century ago when the word was not so loaded, and the context was inoffensive as well. It's not as if we were studying KKK drivel with all manner of disgusting statements about [insert racial slur obviously intended as a slur]. (edited by Rydain on 07-04-05 08:40 PM) |
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Happybunnie84 Red Paragoomba Level: 11  Posts: 18/63 EXP: 5460 For next: 525 Since: 07-06-05 From: P-Town, Illinois Since last post: 102 days Last activity: 92 days |
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Originally posted by NSNick Exactly. Terminating someone, i.e. a waitress because she says... "I can't believe how niggardly of a tip that gentleman just left me" would be wrong. However if the situation were broadened and she was a "white supremecist" and she was working in Harlem or somewhere, and said that, yes, I could see being canned, because most of the world today is very undereducated, and in America, especially, people tend to look how the word sounds to get their definition. I think that the whole... "Political Corectness" to the world all depends on a case by case analysis of the situation. What's right at the bar with your buds at the bar, might not be right the same morning with your boss in the coffee room. And yers, people need to quit being so hostile because one said person uses a word more freely than another. Kat. |
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Dei* Nipper Plant Level: 26 Posts: 296/412 EXP: 97995 For next: 4280 Since: 06-18-05 From: USA, Florida Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 1 day |
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Originally posted by Rydain Yeah see, it's because most people being tought now a days aren't being rised up with all the hate passed down through the bloodlines. Sadistic, isn't it? :/ |
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ClockExplosion Red Goomba Level: 10  Posts: 17/46 EXP: 3573 For next: 841 Since: 06-24-05 From: Fort Worth, Tejas Since last post: 78 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| I don;t like PC language, but I do see why it can be necessary, as a result, my policy is to apologize if someone gets offended. However, if I put it in a poem, then, I won't censor the poem. |
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Arwon Zora Level: 35  Posts: 345/506 EXP: 278115 For next: 1821 Since: 03-15-04 From: Terra Australis Incognita Since last post: 5 hours Last activity: 10 min. |
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| APPROPRIATE LANGUAGE: IT'S ALL ABOUT THE CONTEXT Who'da thunk it? |
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