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1 user currently in Rom Hacking:  hukka |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Rom Hacking - Would ROM Hacks Work On the Real Deal? |
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 225/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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| Would, say, Schwa's hack of Super Mario Bros. 3, Chaos Control, work on the real NES? Would, say, FuSoYa's Super Demo World: The Legend Returns work on the real SNES (assuming the cartridge can hold the entire game--remember, it's expanded)? Has anybody tested this? | |||
Kario In Possession of a Stolen Shovel Level: 65 Posts: 1844/2082 EXP: 2321379 For next: 14249 Since: 03-15-04 From: Texas... Yeehaw! Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 17 hours |
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| I played Super Demo World on my TV, it was flippin awesome. | |||
NetSplit Koopa Level: 19 Posts: 62/117 EXP: 30378 For next: 5399 Since: 04-05-04 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 hour |
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| Depends on the hack. DahrkDaiz's Mario Adventure hack, for example? Probably not. The more extensive the hack, especially in terms of ASM, the more likely it is to mess up on real hardware. Since emulators aren't the same as the real thing (they tend to be inaccurate), they're commonly more lenient when it comes to mistakes, such as timing problems. However, level-only hacks and similar such things are very likely to work. So long as the hack only changes data and not code, the chances of it working are pretty good. | |||
blackhole89 LOLSEALS Moderator of ROM hacking EmuNET IRC network admin Head GM of TwilightRO Level: 47  Posts: 761/971 EXP: 739208 For next: 26995 Since: 03-15-04 From: Dresden/Germany Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 12 hours |
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Well, theoretically, they all should. A problem is though that most emulators out there don't have the limitations a real console has (e.g. SNES9x and writing to VRAM during vertical blank only), and the ROM hackers don't even notice it unless they come to try it out on "the real thing". A good example for this is BMF's latest SMO demo, which caused an ... erm ... "vertical blank overrun", i.e. screen-modifying things not getting done before the end of VBlank, through a way too long NMI (non maskable interrupt) routine (which, I believe, was caused by his palette-based ASM hack launcher).  |
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 226/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by blackhole89 Right. You only have a certain amount of time before the NMI ends and you will want to have RTI'd by then. I personally wish emulators would at least give you the choice of being very strict. (From what I understand, LoopyNES is the strictest NES emulator, while others like NESticle aren't very strict at all.) Then again, they wouldn't be able to catch everything. Perhaps I can try DahrkDaiz's latest SMB3 hack in some different emulators? I'm unable to test it out on the real deal. Which emulators did BMF's latest SMO (what is that?) demo run and were there any on which it didn't? |
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blackhole89 LOLSEALS Moderator of ROM hacking EmuNET IRC network admin Head GM of TwilightRO Level: 47 Posts: 762/971 EXP: 739208 For next: 26995 Since: 03-15-04 From: Dresden/Germany Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 12 hours |
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| SMO ran on both Snes9x and ZSNES, I believe... although I didn't test the latter much What I know for certain is that ZSNES is being semi-strict about VRAM upload outside Vblank. Every writes that occur outside it happen to write a set byte instead of the one actually to be written to it. That makes my SMW RPG code fail on ZSNES |
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d4s Panser Level: 29  Posts: 239/325 EXP: 142151 For next: 5734 Since: 03-23-04 Since last post: 13 days Last activity: 1 day |
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| romhacks that include assembler modifications but were not tested on a snes are very likely to fail on the real thing, especially if the programmer isnt aware of the emulators limitations. crucial points are, as mentioned above, vram access timing and spc700<->65816 synchronisation. however, there are very few people(maybe 2 to 4) around here that can actually code the spc (write a music player or anything like that), so the latter one isnt too important here. sram mapping is another minor issue that ive seen faulty implemented. cant tell you much about nes, but i made a final fantasy 3 cart with neills english patch once and it worked like a charm on my nes. to be honest, i dont like nes very much, though. to actually run a hacked rom on either a snes or nes, you'd have to either use a backup unit/flashcart (not available for nes yet. memblers will have his nes flashcart for sale around juli, though.) or build a cart yourself. you can find instructions for that on my page: http://snesdev.romhack.de (edited by d4s on 06-28-05 11:40 AM) |
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Dwedit Shyguy Level: 17  Posts: 66/92 EXP: 20794 For next: 3949 Since: 04-26-04 Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 1 day |
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The translation of "100 World Story" fails on the newer more accurate emulators. At one of the screens at the main menu, the game is guaranteed to crash. In fact, during the intro animation at one point, the translator puts 9 sprites on the screen next to each other.  (edited by Dwedit on 06-28-05 11:43 AM) |
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 226/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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| I'm curious, then. Would my homebrew ROM work on the real deal? http://nesdev.parodius.com/bkg.zip Does anybody have a way of testing it? In every emulator, btw, I've tested it out on it works. DahrkDaiz's SMB3DX works on LoopyNES, Nintendulator (which is supposed to be the most accurate), etc. The ASM hack I posted for the starting spaces in SMB3 (and which will be implemented in my editor) I think takes place when the screen is off, so it probably would work on the real deal. d4s, I know Memblers. I remember we worked on the NESDEVPROJECT together about a year and a half ago before FrenziedPanda's lack of capable leadership crashed it. Perhaps I can ask him about testing it. From your story, it seems like you're capable of testing out NES roms. Might you test out my bkg? It requires no mapper and it works on every emulator. |
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redrum Micro-Goomba Level: 6  Posts: 6/12 EXP: 875 For next: 32 Since: 08-16-04 From: forest of silence Since last post: 40 days Last activity: 37 days |
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| i heard about a few versions of my works converted into NES>GBA compilations... the romdump i received didnt turn out very stable, but from what i hear it works with the hardware  |
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KawaiiImoto-e Hammer Brother Level: 49 Posts: 825/1068 EXP: 852917 For next: 30966 Since: 03-15-04 From: In my own little complicated dreamworld Since last post: 16 days Last activity: 4 days |
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| Many Mario World Hacks work on a Real SNES. Super Demo World TLC is limited cos of its size, Marios O. works on a NTSC SNES, crashes on the titlescreen on a PAL SNES. (According to BMF it worked on a NTSC SNES, according to me not on a PAL SNES). |
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Sukasa Boomboom Error 349857348734534: The system experienced an error. Level: 57  Posts: 1067/1981 EXP: 1446921 For next: 39007 Since: 02-06-05 From: *Shrug* Since last post: 6 days Last activity: 1 day |
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| SMO was hardcoded timing-wise to the NTSC timings. That's why the PAL SNES won't work with it. | |||
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BMF98567 BLACK HAS BUILT A SILLY DICE-MAZE! GO! Current list of BURNING FURY >8( recipients: - Yiffy Kitten (x2) - Xkeeper Level: 53  Posts: 953/1261 EXP: 1094149 For next: 62970 Since: 03-15-04 From: Blobaria Special Move: Rising Meatloaf Backhand Combo Since last post: 21 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| I have a Legend of the Blob Bros. 2 cartridge that works 100% properly on a real NES. However, that hack has only a few very small ASM modifications, as I was just learning it at the time. SMO, on the other hand...bleh. I'd like to find out exactly what part of my code causes it to crash a real SNES (little help, d4s? blackhole?). I kinda doubt it's the palette-based ASM code, since I'm pretty sure I placed it outside the NMI routines. The HDMA code, on the other hand...that could very well be an issue. Being the SNES n00b that I am, I think I stuck that in NMI because its previous location was causing glitches whenever the game slowed down. Do some of Fu's hacks (animated tiles and whatnot) run during VBlank as well? |
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DahrkDaiz Red Super Koopa  Acmlm's Mosts 2005 Best ROM Hacker Level: 45  Posts: 693/885 EXP: 643520 For next: 16644 Since: 03-15-04 From: K-Town Since last post: 4 hours Last activity: 4 hours |
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| The amount of ASM hacks has no bearing on whether a hack will work on the real hardware or not. SMB3DX ASM modifications far surpass Mario Adventure's ASM modifcations, yet, SMB3DX would work on the real thing and Mario Adventure would not. Mario Adventure breaks a few rules that a few emulators don't follow but SMB3DX follows all the rules. (edited by blackhole89 on 06-29-05 08:46 AM) |
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blackhole89 LOLSEALS Moderator of ROM hacking EmuNET IRC network admin Head GM of TwilightRO Level: 47 Posts: 764/971 EXP: 739208 For next: 26995 Since: 03-15-04 From: Dresden/Germany Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 12 hours |
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| @BMF, I'll have a look at it (Snes9x's source is freely available, so it shouldn't be too tough to recode it in order to make it follow the SNES hardware limitations strictly). Can't ensure you I actually find the issue though. @DD, added in a missing period in your post. Also, there is no direct influence of the amount of ASM hacks on whether the hack runs on a real SNES... after all, an SNES game could be considered an ASM-hacked nothing  ... but it still can do so indirectly if you, for instance, exceed the time given for the execution of screen-modifying code (i.e. Vblank). |
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d4s Panser Level: 29 Posts: 240/325 EXP: 142151 For next: 5734 Since: 03-23-04 Since last post: 13 days Last activity: 1 day |
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Originally posted by BMF54123 snes n00b? i'd never call anybody who can drive the 65816 a snes noob  what you did was very cool, its not your fault its kinda hard to get stuff running on the snes. i can do in-depth testing on your hack if you like. this is what i remember from my short tests some months ago: your hack crashes right away at the title screen. after adding my fastrom patch, it passes the title screen and you can play fine until you collect a coin. the most likely reason is that you exceed the available vblank time. i dont know yet about the coin thingie. fus hacks can run out of vblank time aswell but they dont do that per s (edited by d4s on 06-29-05 02:10 PM) |
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 5366/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| I think SNES (or possibly NES) can easily be modded to have a 50/60hz switch. Also, if it was purely ASM hack count, well... any ROM you edit in Lunar Magic will have more ASM hacks than a lot of complete hacks of other games. It's not quantity, it's quality. You could have 5898345 changes to the original code but if your new code makes sure to do things right, it'll work fine on a real SNES. And even one ASM hack (or for that matter, buggy original code) can cause the game to crash on a real SNES (or even an emulator if they were more accurate and followed the restrictions) if done wrong. |
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 234/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by HyperHacker How about an original homebrew game written for the old Nintendo (like my BKG graphics test) whose author went to painstaking lengths to do everything right? What's the chance of that working? |
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HyperLamer <||bass> and this was the soloution i thought of that was guarinteed to piss off the greatest amount of people Sesshomaru Tamaranian Level: 118 Posts: 5373/8210 EXP: 18171887 For next: 211027 Since: 03-15-04 From: Canada, w00t! LOL FAD Since last post: 2 hours Last activity: 2 hours |
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| If it's programmed right, it should. | |||
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d4s Panser Level: 29 Posts: 241/325 EXP: 142151 For next: 5734 Since: 03-23-04 Since last post: 13 days Last activity: 1 day |
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Originally posted by HyperHacker the snes can easily be modified to output either 50 or 60hz, thats a know fact. im talking about nes, though. theres no way to get 50hz video output from a ntsc nes/fc or vice versa as they use different ppus. nesclones-on-a-chip(newer ones) have a pin on the cpu that determines the video mode so they are actually pretty handy. due to the chip being a gloptop, its usually hard to access the pin if the designers of the pcb didnt route it to a solder bridge or a jumper. Originally posted by beneficii this has nothing to do with chance or luck. no matter how hard you try, sometimes you just overlook something by accident. all im saying is: you wont know until you test it. [edit] just tested out bmfs mario odyssey. applying my fastrom patch before or after bmfs patch didnt help much. the game usually crashes 3-4 seconds after entering a level. it works a little bit better (longer) in pal mode (because pal 50hz has longer vblanks), but not very good either, maybe 6 or 7 seconds. if you need advice on how to optimize your nmi handler, feel free to pm me. however, i dont feel like wading through all the code without knowing whats yours and whats not, so youll have to tell me first where you made changes. vram uploads are the crucial points here, of course. (edited by d4s on 06-29-05 07:24 PM) (edited by d4s on 06-29-05 08:10 PM) |
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