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| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Lost Section - Such a thing as random? |
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paraplayer Snifit Level: 22  Posts: 4/280 EXP: 57271 For next: 1079 Since: 06-06-05 Since last post: 44 days Last activity: 44 days |
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| My mind has been wandering lately and i've been thinking about this. when you flip a coin it isn't random. There are factors in the toss that change the outcome. Its rotation. when it was flipped. The way it lands. If you gather all the factors then you can predict excactly how the coin will land. But then i thought "What about computers? They can produce completely random numbers!" But turns out thats not quite. Most of you being smart computer hackers already know that a random number comes from a complex "Seed" thing. So.... What if this applies to the brain? You're probably thinking right now "But i can think of a random number! 56!" But is that number really random? I don't think so. Everything contributes to your decision of saying that number, memories, feelings heck who knows. So lets say something else. Lets say that the whole earth and the universe was created again. Time started all over again. Would we develop are civilization all over again the same way? Would we make the same decisions? Doesn't that mean we don't really make decisions but we're just purely logical machines doing what we were "Programmed" to do. Anyways ponder that for a bit. Correcrt me if i said anything that was incorrect. |
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Slay Level: 25 Posts: 148/339 EXP: 85592 For next: 4028 Since: 04-28-05 From: Threshold Between Heaven and Hell Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 1 day |
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| I do believe it's a correct assertion that coin flips (or die rolls) aren't truly random; it's mostly a comparason of force of throw, angle of impact and of course, gravity. But there is randomness. Certain nuclear elements release ions (or something along those lines) at a random rate that follows no pattern. The decimal value of Pi is random, there's no pattern. But far fewer things, I believe, are actually random than most people think. But this just stems from linguistics. For example, you might say you're lucky if you win the lottery, but it's not luck at all; it was pure chance that your number was called. But we still say, "Good luck." | |||
beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 105/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by paraplayer Does free will equal randomness? |
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Smallhacker Green Birdo SMW Hacking Moderator Level: 68  Posts: 1675/2273 EXP: 2647223 For next: 81577 Since: 03-15-04 From: Söderhamn, Sweden Since last post: 10 hours Last activity: 9 hours |
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| I doubt that there are true randomness, which means that free will is an illusion. "Cause and effect" - The Merovingian (sp?) |
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neotransotaku Baby Mario 戻れたら、 誰も気が付く Level: 87 Posts: 3138/4016 EXP: 6220548 For next: 172226 Since: 03-15-04 From: Outside of Time/Space Since last post: 11 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| your question paraplayer is exactly what chaos theory is all about. but i think randomness is more of the ability to predict the outcome. the flipping of the coin is random because we do not have enough information to predict the outcome. Yes, if people know all the things that influence the coin as it moves, then it isn't random. Because are unable to ascertain such information in the time the coin is flipped, it causes that event to be called random. hmm...it seems you said all that. computers have pseudo-random number generators--there is not such thing as a random number generator in the context of computers |
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Kitten Yiffer Purple wand Furry moderator Vivent l'exp����¯�¿�½������©rience de signalisation d'amusement, ou bien ! Level: 135 Posts: 9838/11162 EXP: 28824106 For next: 510899 Since: 03-15-04 From: Sweden Since last post: 3 hours Last activity: 4 min. |
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| Scintists says that everything is going at chaos. And Chaos is something that is hard to predict. And I sorta belive that free will does exist to a certain extent. Both computers and humans are bad at random numbers. Humans tend to favor certain numbers more and computers random generator tries to be random as possible but dosen't always succeed. |
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Ran-chan Moldorm eek, when are they going to stop growing... Level: 143  Posts: 9853/12781 EXP: 35293588 For next: 538220 Since: 03-15-04 From: Nerima District, Tokyo - Japan Since last post: 12 hours Last activity: 12 hours |
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| Oh, I know chaos when I see it. "Humans tend to favor certain numbers more" I always had number 5 on the back of my T-shirt when I played soccer. We flipped thumbtacks at a Math lesson to calculate what was the most common landing. |
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beneficii Lakitu Level: 36 Posts: 111/567 EXP: 299656 For next: 8454 Since: 06-27-04 From: Cordova, TN, USA Since last post: 14 hours Last activity: 6 hours |
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Originally posted by Smallhacker As regards this, I've always wondered about the nature of the user. You know how you are viewing things and can control them; you are receiving information from the outside and sending information out. I've always wondered about the user. Some may say it's an illusion to fool you that you are a user somehow separate from your body, but I say if there's no user to fool, then why bother? The fact that you are seeing all this shows that you as a user exist, and you're not necessarily tied to your current body. |
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Jagori Flurry Level: 27 Posts: 217/267 EXP: 103625 For next: 12534 Since: 04-17-04 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 2 hours |
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| Humans can't act randomly. I think that there is randomness in this universe, but none of it is generated directly by humans, or any other living creature on Earth for that matter. I could be wrong about there being randomness, since I've never done any research on the matter, but I'm quite sure that humans don't act randomly. | |||
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paraplayer Snifit Level: 22 Posts: 40/280 EXP: 57271 For next: 1079 Since: 06-06-05 Since last post: 44 days Last activity: 44 days |
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| Hey i looked up the chaos theory and it's pretty interesting. but there's one thing i don't understand: It says in order to predict the fututre you'd need an INFINITE measurement. wouldn't you just need a measurement accurate enough down to atomic size? |
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Jagori Flurry Level: 27 Posts: 218/267 EXP: 103625 For next: 12534 Since: 04-17-04 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 2 hours |
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| As for the measurement... interactions still do happen at the subatomic level. Basically to actually predict the future you'd need to measure every property of the thing you're predicting the future of, every property of everything that interacts with it, every property of everything that interacts with those things, and so on. I think that's what they mean by infinite; an infinite number of measurements and data, not a measurement of infinite(ly small) magnitude. (edited by Jagori on 06-09-05 04:57 PM) |
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||bass Programmer Admin Level: 44  Posts: 464/817 EXP: 570813 For next: 40472 Since: 03-15-04 From: Salem, Connecticut Since last post: 26 days Last activity: 11 days |
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| There is such a thing as a quantum random number generator. They're extriemly expensive and they do work. Anything that operates on entirely quantum mechanical principals can be said to be truely and absoloutly random. | |||
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paraplayer Snifit Level: 22 Posts: 46/280 EXP: 57271 For next: 1079 Since: 06-06-05 Since last post: 44 days Last activity: 44 days |
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| a quantum random number generator? how does it work? is there an article you could link me too? | |||
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Jagori Flurry Level: 27 Posts: 219/267 EXP: 103625 For next: 12534 Since: 04-17-04 Since last post: 1 day Last activity: 2 hours |
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| It's based on radioactive decay (or at least it can be; there might be other ways I don't know of). Particles in nature will always revert to the lowest energy state possible without violating laws of physics. In a radioactive substance, the unstable nuclei 'decay' (that is, pieces of them break off and get launched away). The problem is that that can't just happen for no reason; something has to 'lend' a nucleus the little bit of energy it needs to break down. That could come from a source such as cosmic background radiation, but due to what's described by the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, that doesn't necessarily have to happen. The energy inside the nucleus could spontaneously vary enough to raise it over that limit to break down, and then all the energy is released so that no laws of physics are violated. The random factor is that we can't predict when any given particle is going to do that. We can know that it will happen, we just can't know when. It could be a microsecond from now, or it could be many years. A quantum random number generator could collect the output of the decay of an amount of radioactive substance in binary form (1 for collected, 0 for not) which could then be converted into whatever random form you need. http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/how.html has a pretty good description of what I just summarized, but in greater detail and with diagrams. |
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paraplayer Snifit Level: 22 Posts: 49/280 EXP: 57271 For next: 1079 Since: 06-06-05 Since last post: 44 days Last activity: 44 days |
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| i still think its not random. its VERY VERY VERY chaotic but still not random. | |||
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||bass Programmer Admin Level: 44 Posts: 469/817 EXP: 570813 For next: 40472 Since: 03-15-04 From: Salem, Connecticut Since last post: 26 days Last activity: 11 days |
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| No. It is random. Quantum energy states (take position of an electron in a given energy level as an example) can only exist as statistical abstractions until actually observed. At this point they will fall into a number of set states. The results can be statistically tracked, but an individual measurement can never be accurately predicted because the results are absoloutly random. The smaller you go, the more chaotic things get. At sizes approaching the planck length, total chaos reigns. |
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Legion banning people for no reason sure is fun Level: 101  Posts: 4310/5657 EXP: 10399737 For next: 317938 Since: 03-15-04 From: The Crossroads is under attack! Since last post: 5 days Last activity: 5 days |
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| I'm posting in this thread. Why? Because I chose to. Free will does exist. I can't believe people actually try to argue against it. (And they do so why? Because they chose to.) |
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NSNick Laidback Admin Level: 85  Posts: 2376/3875 EXP: 5895841 For next: 2699 Since: 03-15-04 From: North Side School: OSU Since last post: 9 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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| I used to get irked when people would refer to extraordinary or unexpected things as "random". Then I eventually got used to it. | |||
Snika Boo Level: 44  Posts: 97/916 EXP: 600678 For next: 10607 Since: 07-21-04 From: Freezing Cold Alaska! Since last post: 2 days Last activity: 2 days |
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| Oh yeah, Paraplayer. You've brought this up with me before. I agree with you, man. Randomness isn't real. Different things around things effect its outcome. Say someone decided to twirl around in a chair. This wasn't a random thing to do. That person could've decided to do it because he was bored or drunk. Okay, now the chair stops at the end of the twirl. Did it stop in a random place? No. Gravity, force, and other types of energy helped make 'nature's decision' of where the chair stopped. The above can be applied to anything... A random number a human choses, the lotto number, the outfit you pick out, ect. Nonrandomness in humans could be what seperates us from computers. Lets say randomness ONLY existed in computers. If you tell a computer to pick a random number, it will. No deciding factors... No gravity, no hand to grab the clothes. But what if there were these deciding factors? Why is it that some computers take 5 minutes to boot up The Sims 2 while others take 2? Are the deciding factors the parts of the computer? The motherboard? The harddrive? The 'random' number it picks could depend on these things, however illogical it may seem. =P Snika |
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NSNick Laidback Admin Level: 85 Posts: 2453/3875 EXP: 5895841 For next: 2699 Since: 03-15-04 From: North Side School: OSU Since last post: 9 hours Last activity: 1 hour |
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Originally posted by Snika Not true. The numbers computers choose are not random, but predetermined. |
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