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1 user currently in Super Mario World hacking:  labmaster |
| Acmlm's Board - I2 Archive - Super Mario World hacking - Smb3 enemys in smw? |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38  Posts: 63/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Lunar Magic was for Super Mario World for a reason, you know - There's a lot you can do with the SMW engine, and even if LM was for another game, people still would recognize that and probably a lot of people would go with whatever game LM was for, but to say that all the people who went to SMW for LM would go to SMB3 for LM or Sonic 2 for LM or YI for LM is just foolhardy. Well, I wouldn't go to the extreme conclusion that everyone would hack Mario 3.. I'm sure you'd have your DD for SMW who makes a good SMW hack regardless.  Personally, I think Mario 3 > SMW, especially if you're talking about the SMAS version.my tactlessness was actually supposed to be something of a joke. nobody has a great sense of humor anymore As Blisseh said, if anyone's sense of humour is off, it's yours... your post was indistinguishable from a commonplace flame, and so I don't see how I was supposed to know it was any difference. You didn't prove anything to me, I still stand by everything I've said and more people agree with me than you, try coming to the channel I visit, you'll be seriously outnumbered. And, mind you, there's no such thing as an SMB3 hacking community. Rom hackers are rom hackers, I don't care what game they're hacking. We all do this to have fun, if you're goal is to get recognition and think you need a better editor to get there, then get the hell out our "community". Fin. Now for my elitist moment.. I don't give a damn what you or anyone else thinks based on the fact that you think something. Idiots in numbers, you know? If someone had some real argument against me, I'm sure it could be made, and I've been inviting people for a while to (unsucessfully make it.) I don't care what you think, since this post is about how things are and not how they should be. It doesn't matter whether people agree with me, since I'm not trying to change anything. I'm not asking for a "communistic community", and even if I was, they way you put it is absolutely absurd. At best, I would hope for a community where anyone has the means to realize their hacking ideals as well as anyone else. That doesn't mean all hacks will be equal, it'd mean that crappy designers would make crappy hacks, and good designers would make good hacks. Shock. Horror. We don't have the exact opposite at the moment - for all its glory or whatever, MA could've been better, and so there is room for a person of average skill, yet better design potential, to exceed it on some levels, which is great. No, I didn't win, I didn't convince you, I don't think you could be convinced unless I had, like, solid statistics or something, which I never will. But I reduced you to petty sarcasm, which I know is as close as I'll get. And hell.. I'd ask you to invite your channel here... it'd be fun for me, but it probably wouldn't be very productive. But if any of them are better than you, yea... bring 'em on. My main problem with you is that you tend not to debate the point, and instead say stupid things like, "you're advocating communism, and communism is lame." Christ. (edited by hhallahh on 04-11-04 04:25 PM) |
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Fyxe Lyn Level: 51 Posts: 50/1160 EXP: 954265 For next: 59673 Since: 03-29-04 Since last post: 117 days Last activity: 114 days |
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| I do not want to get involved in the argument, but I do want to say that hhallahh makes a good point, actually. If a hack has some sort of gimmick, some little 'thing' that someone with knowledge of hacking has ASMed into the game, then it would get far more attention than, say... A level-only hack. Even if the ASM addition was largely meaningless and the level design of the hack was dreadful. Meanwhile, the hack with no gimmicks or special features or even ExGFX could have the BEST LEVEL DESIGN EVER, and it would get ignored in the wake of the other hack. The fact is that there are people who can come up with wonderful and imaginative level design but know absolutely jack-squat about any serious hacking. Things like ASM and even Hex take a remarkable amount of time to learn and many people would rather just *create* something enjoyable without having to do all that. I also think hhallahh is right in some respects about the usage of LM. If Lunar Magic was an editor for Yoshi's Island (ie: there was an editor that was as easy to use and as masterfully designed with as many features as Lunar Magic), then people would be hacking that game more than SMW (if SMW did NOT have an editor with the power of Lunar Magic). It would be nice for difficult ASM features like enemy editing to be part of Lunar Magic. It's not likely to be something that would ever happen, at least not for long long while, but it would be nice for all of us who don't have the time or skill with ASM. Good hackers do not always make good hacks. (edited by Fyxe on 04-11-04 05:30 PM) |
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Gavin Fuzzy Rhinoceruses don't play games. They fucking charge your ass. Level: 43  Posts: 29/799 EXP: 551711 For next: 13335 Since: 03-15-04 From: IL, USA Since last post: 13 hours Last activity: 13 hours |
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| I do not want to get involved in the argument, but I do want to say that hhallahh makes a good point, actually. If a hack has some sort of gimmick, some little 'thing' that someone with knowledge of hacking has ASMed into the game, then it would get far more attention than, say... A level-only hack. Meanwhile, the hack with no gimmicks or special features or even ExGFX could have the BEST LEVEL DESIGN EVER, and it would get ignored in the wake of the other hack. but see, you're missing the point. romhacking isn't about what gets more attention, i feel bad for any person that has that view, you're just doing it for the wrong reasons. you make hacks because you enjoy them. not to be popular or to be cool, or to get attention at all. look at translators, they do it for the pure love of the game. if someone else happens to enjoy the translation, cool. if not, oh well, they're satisfied knowing they like what they've done and get enjoyment out of it. The fact is that there are people who can come up with wonderful and imaginative level design but know absolutely jack-squat about any serious hacking. Things like ASM and even Hex take a remarkable amount of time to learn and many people would rather just *create* something enjoyable without having to do all that. it's really not as hard as everyone makes it out to be. once you get used to it, like everything in life, it's nice |
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Euclid Cheep-cheep Level: 23 Posts: 22/193 EXP: 65528 For next: 2195 Since: 03-15-04 From: Australia Since last post: 24 days Last activity: 7 days |
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| I also don't want to get involved too much, but I just want to say a few things: 1.) one quote on romhacking - "whether it's ethical or not, or lacks "originality", we're all here for one purpose: to infringe copyrights and enjoy doing it" - DD 2.) about LM - they're suppose to help you romhack, not do the whole thing for you, have you ever seen an "fully completed editor for one game"? No of course not, LM edits lots of things already, but it's not complete. A software can never be fully complete, you need to understand that, if say if, Fusoya does what you want in the editor now, later people is going to demand more, you get the point? Is somebody going to spend all these time doing maintainance to the software? 3.) about ASM hacks - sure if an editor is able to do some ASM mods, sure it's nice but, you need to know "Quality comes with Time", if you can produce this 'awesome-looking' hack in 30 hours, why won't anyone else do the same and he might just spend 40 hours to do a even better one? DD's MA took like a year or so, guess how that one turned out? How about GameMakr's ZeldaC? same thing here, took 1 year, there was no tools for dungeon editing back then, did that fail to impress people back then? It's all about how people can see the amount of work you've done in a hack. If something can be achieved in a short time, a lot of people with some skills will attempt to do the same. Why do people want to spend that much time on hacking then? I think i've quoted the answer already. *braces for some flame war* |
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Steak Zora Level: 35  Posts: 304/507 EXP: 278751 For next: 1185 Since: 03-16-04 From: Ohio University Since last post: 195 days Last activity: 195 days |
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| I've read through the thread...here's what I think about all this: 1. I've seen laming on one side and the better hackers on the other...neither side willing to budge...while people like me, who are between the two, don't get anything out of all this. Awhile ago, somebody posted a thread about walking somebody through an ASM hack. I got most of it...would get it better if I get the chance to actually try (college eats time quickly). I, personally, am more inclined to go the route that DD and Disch have declared...likely during summer. 2. The whole thing is about (yep, here we go...) LEVEL DESIGN. I don't know how many times I've tried out a hack somebody did, and I said "Gee...this is...dull." or "Gee...how...predictable." There's been many other times I've said "Good grief...are you trying to give the master game testers a good challenge or what!?" I just want something that's fun to play. Masterful ASM hacks will still blow chunks if I'm sitting there thinking "Gee...this is...dull." or anything else short "Hey, not bad, not bad." It's about the gameplay. If you feel it necessary to modify one aspect or another about how the game functions, great. If not, don't worry about it. 'Bout all the more ASM I'd care to do to SMW would be to fiddle around with the ! blocks and what they give. 3. Everyone just shut up. People keep reiterating over and over the same stances in this thread, just on specific points. Neither side has budged an inch; neither side is going to budge an inch; there's no point in chewing up any more of Ace's (or anybody else's, for that matter) server space if nobody is willing to back down. (edited by Steak: Prince of Darkness on 04-12-04 01:08 AM) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 70/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| 3.) about ASM hacks - sure if an editor is able to do some ASM mods, sure it's nice but, you need to know "Quality comes with Time", if you can produce this 'awesome-looking' hack in 30 hours, why won't anyone else do the same and he might just spend 40 hours to do a even better one? DD's MA took like a year or so, guess how that one turned out? How about GameMakr's ZeldaC? same thing here, took 1 year, there was no tools for dungeon editing back then, did that fail to impress people back then? It's all about how people can see the amount of work you've done in a hack. If something can be achieved in a short time, a lot of people with some skills will attempt to do the same. Why do people want to spend that much time on hacking then? I think i've quoted the answer already. Doesn't that kinda go to my point? If prospective designer A has a choice between hacking game X, which will take a year to hack, and hacking game Y, which will take 30 hours to hack, why in the hell would he go for game X? Maybe as a challenge to himself... but then again, maybe he could dedicate that year to game Y and make the most awesome hack game Y has ever seen, instead of another average game X hack. I mean, maybe I've just had too much economics, talking about expected payoffs and utility and the like, but I just see as going with game Y for 30 hours as the "rational" choice. 2. The whole thing is about (yep, here we go...) LEVEL DESIGN. I don't know how many times I've tried out a hack somebody did, and I said "Gee...this is...dull." or "Gee...how...predictable." There's been many other times I've said "Good grief...are you trying to give the master game testers a good challenge or what!?" I just want something that's fun to play. Masterful ASM hacks will still blow chunks if I'm sitting there thinking "Gee...this is...dull." or anything else short "Hey, not bad, not bad." It's about the gameplay. If you feel it necessary to modify one aspect or another about how the game functions, great. If not, don't worry about it. 'Bout all the more ASM I'd care to do to SMW would be to fiddle around with the ! blocks and what they give. As Fyxe said, while level design is probably THE main factor is a hack's quality, the average person, given a choice between a hack which advertises itself as having "new levels, new powerups, new enemies, new music, new graphics, etc. etc" vs. a hack which advertises itself as having "new levels"... well, people will always play the first one. Little cosmetic features may not be important to the overall greatness of a hack (but they often are), but they'll be important to attracting people to begin with. Your hack can be the best in the world in level design, but if it doesn't have at least custom graphics and a custom overworld, no one will take it seriously, for better or worse. 'Bout all the more ASM I'd care to do to SMW would be to fiddle around with the ! blocks and what they give. Would you really hold to that point if everyone were, say, sprite hacking? You wouldn't want to create new enemies as well? That seems strange to me. Going way way back to the original topic, what if someone were able to put SMB3 enemies in Mario World? There are lots of cool SMB3 enemies. You wouldn't want to use those? (edited by hhallahh on 04-12-04 02:35 AM) |
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Grinto Red Goomba Level: 12 Posts: 8/43 EXP: 6890 For next: 1031 Since: 03-15-04 Since last post: 13 hours Last activity: 12 hours |
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| I know this is a bit irrelevant and old, but there was something bothering me about that 'piano analogy' that was brought up earlier. Wouldn't the Super Mario World (or whatever) game itself be equivalent to the piano? You write down your notes or mess with a level, and then go back to that object to see how it turns out. You're not expected to create a game to hack it in the first place, just like you're not expected to build a piano to make music with it. |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 73/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Yea, ummm... I guess. At the time, the analogy didn't really call for that degree of complexity. =\ | |||
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Steak Zora Level: 35 Posts: 310/507 EXP: 278751 For next: 1185 Since: 03-16-04 From: Ohio University Since last post: 195 days Last activity: 195 days |
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Originally posted by hhallahh *cough* This here has the grand total of two (2) original graphic that nobody before has used: the overworld swamp tiles, and the grass around Matoya's getup. Everything else has been yoinked from existing games and/or had its palettes revamped. Also note that the overworld was barely touched. How much good news I have seen about this compared to bad? The positivie comments greatly outweigh the negative. While it's not SMW, the point still remains defeated. (edited by Steak: Prince of Darkness on 04-12-04 02:12 PM) |
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hhallahh Bob-Omb Level: 38 Posts: 75/607 EXP: 365476 For next: 4971 Since: 03-15-04 From: Portland, OR Since last post: 73 days Last activity: 60 days |
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| Um, Idunno. Are there lots of FF hacks? Do these competing hacks feature a lot of custom graphics? Is this hack more famous then all those others? My comment was based on my observations of the SMW community - every hack nowadays will have custom graphics, even if they're shitty ones. This can apply more or less across genres... with RPGs (especially old ones like FF1), you could probably get away without new graphics... but you'd probably need more emphasis on new items, monsters, spells, etc. (though Idunno how you'd do those w/o new graphics.) Also, an RPG with an excellent plot, I'll admit, can attract people even if its cosmetic features are lacking. Most other genres don't have that advantage. |
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